Author Topic: The Hovering Non Fighting KOTH Vulchers  (Read 2217 times)

Offline TequilaChaser

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The Hovering Non Fighting KOTH Vulchers
« on: April 25, 2005, 07:59:28 AM »
I love the fights, and the overall KOTH events themselves. However, I despise the Hovering Non Fighting cherry Picking vulchers that sit and hover above the others, regardless if it is someone hovering over a 1vs1 fight or a 3 way fight. certian individuals will sit there hovering 2 to 3k alt above the others watching and waiting flying in a circle around like a vulcher and when the last one standing just happens to finish off 1 of the last 2 fighting, the hovering vulcher then rolls in and cherry picks the last individual right as the last 1 has exhausted all his E killing the other.  the whole time the HOVERING TIMID vulcher is not engaging, not fighting and is saving his precius fuel avoiding any fight for a good 3 to 6 minutes

The people who attend the KOTH tournaments come here to fight, if you are in the vicinity of a fight don't be a panzie and fly like the timid chicken scratch piece of bird **** you are.  If you feel you must fly like this it would be better off if you did not even show up for the KOTH event.

There is no need for names the ones that fly this way know who they are, and so does the other participants that fly in the KOTH.

The last 4 or 5 KOTHS ( more than that really) have seen this type of action, along with the running to avoid a fight, and flying clear across the radar circle by passing 8 to 10 other individuals and not engaging just to down certian players.

Yes the KOTH is about SA, but to hover and wait like the vulcher, isn't SA it is bad sportsmanship,  some of these individuals should take a long look in the mirror and figure out just exactly what type of  dung they actually make themselves out to be to the rest of the KOTH participants.........it  has become pathetic to say the least.

Now for the yapping and fussing.  That is at an all time high too.  it was the reason I logged early friday night,  Stang, I respect your flying abilitys, and consider you a threat, especially when you already have 2 rds won under your belt,  after reviewing my film,  I did not see where I fired at you head on, from my film anyhow. I be glad to pass it your way.  and again I enjoy flying against you and would pull out anything I had in my bag to try and beat you.......because you are a dangerous opponent.

When we fight in the KOTH tournaments we fly on the honor system, meaning Shuckins! do not fly 1/3 of the sector out of the radar circle out of con range, climb to 10k alt and come barrelling back in a max dive speed and then denie your actions and proceed to try and shoot someone down. Especially when others are calling you out on your actions constantly before you ever rev back to engage.

most of us who have participated long enough will bail or .ef at 1st sight of us going over the rule barrier without any say so from any one else. regardless if "FIGHT ON" has been called yet or not.

If certian people can not fly with enough dignity to abide by the rules it be best for you to not even show up.

I am sure their are quite a few others if not many that feel the same way.

TC  ( & ManeTMP, Jish & Stang must have a Red Dot  laser sight,  their aiming and gunnery is impecable!!! heh )
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline kid

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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2005, 09:36:23 AM »
This was my first KOTH event and I had a blast - thank you all.

I can also see how some shirking tactics could work in one's favor.   Perhaps an all pilot air-start over a confined area would resolve these problems?

Then again, simple COD powers booting folks would work too.

kid

Offline Nuke33

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The Hovering Non Fighting KOTH Vulchers
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2005, 09:58:06 AM »
I can see the frustruation caused to some by people flying this way. However KOTH is NOT the dueling arena.. Its being the last one standing no matter how they get there.. Yes it sucks to get whacked while you're engaged but its happened to me more then once.. Do I get pissed, yeah, but thats the game.. Somehow people think you can't play dirty in KOTH which is thick headed IMO..

Every fight and death doesnt have to be the overly elaborate honorable duel of the century like some people think it has to be..
« Last Edit: April 25, 2005, 10:03:32 AM by Nuke33 »

Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: The Hovering Non Fighting KOTH Vulchers
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2005, 10:15:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by TequilaChaser

The people who attend the KOTH tournaments come here to fight, if you are in the vicinity of a fight don't be a panzie and fly like the timid chicken scratch piece of bird **** (<---the word that got masked was  t- u - r - d ))you are.  



and  Nuke33, I take it you approve of circling above a 3 to 5 minute fight where 2 to 4 are going at it and not engaging anyone  just waiting with out impunity til only 1 is left to dive in and whack him when he is a sitting duck?
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Nuke33

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The Hovering Non Fighting KOTH Vulchers
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2005, 10:21:30 AM »
I never said I approved of it, all I said is that it is part of the game.. Its cut throat last man standing, not the dueling arena..

Offline TequilaChaser

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The Hovering Non Fighting KOTH Vulchers
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2005, 11:13:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nuke33
I never said I approved of it,

fair enough

Quote
Originally posted by Nuke33
all I said is that it is part of the game.. Its cut throat last man standing, not the dueling arena..


it is not part of the game, if you so happen to get caught and get called on it, you will prob be booted out of the arena, avoiding and hovering over 3 to 4 or 5 others and not engaging when one can at any given time, but refuses to,  has nothing to do with the DA, and is against the KOTH rules. heck  for that matter why even mention the DA  that has no bearing in this discussion that I can see. The rules are in place and people skate them as much as they can unless they are caught, then they start complaining  when they get outright called on the infraction.

not arguing with you Nuke, just stating the facts. and no, I am not saying you did this, you was always down low in the grass or fighting when I ever saw you in a round.

the same rules have been in place for KOTH since KOTH's inception back in the 90's. BigMax does everything he can to make sure everyone abides by the rules of engagement,  and sometimes BigMax could use an extra pair or 2 of eyes for the simple fact people want to push the limits of them ......

TC
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Nuke33

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The Hovering Non Fighting KOTH Vulchers
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2005, 11:43:42 AM »
The only reason I was mentioning the dueling arena is because people are 'forced' to fight there and its a duel... I think part of KOTH is surviving, and if that means hovering around for a little bit then so be it..

But honestly, if someone is high above a fight and they happen to thin each other out, are you seriously going to bleed all your E, or let them gain their E back just so you can have a spectacular duel? Heck no thats retarded.. Go for the easy kill right? Cheap, Yes.. Easy, Yes.. But it happens and in my opinion isnt a problem..

Just a quick example.. I was about to down Jish65 in the last round (the one which he ended up winning the whole thing).. I HAD him after a duel from about 6k to the deck.. I was about to line up for the kill shot and I get smacked from behind cause we were low and slow.. Yeah it sucked, but I didn't cry about it..

Offline kid

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« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2005, 12:00:48 PM »
... yup stuff happens, but in principle the "other guy" should not lurk above and swoop in for the vulch - it should be more of a free for all ...

At least that's how I understand it.  That said, I did weasle out of furballs at times to grab some air and E before diving back in.

kid

Offline TequilaChaser

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The Hovering Non Fighting KOTH Vulchers
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2005, 12:21:45 PM »
sorry I missed the end of the tourny, I don't think you are thinking of the same type of situation, maybe you are.

I see nothing wrong with a higher opponent B N Zing 2 or 3 lower people fighting it out,  some would call it cherry picking, that does not bother me the least


avoiding to engage is the matter I am refering to.  Is all in how one views the situation I guess

wait til next tourny watch everyone hover above 2 or 3 guys and just sit on a perch then dive in right as he blows his opponent out of the sky.......

that's the ticket! yeah buddy


I myself only ever recall once where I was accused of doing something like this, ManeTMP thought I purposely was not shooting someone he was dragging , the fact was I was shooting, I was missing too and I did conect around same time the guy connected with him. If ManeTMP did not slip and slid to evade so dang hard I might have cleared his 6 so he could reverse then shoot me down :p

but none of us was sitting waiting wishing for the lower players to finish each other off so we could have a easy pick , is bout the same as vulching someone taking off

I ranted my opinion long enough, the rules are there to deal with the instances I have refered to in my previous or 1st post in this thread. BigMax even saw the end of 1 or 2 of these and typed on the text buffer, it was getting a bit ridiculous......

so I'm zipping my lips on this and letting it go , I have made my thoughts known


edit: I wanted to add, WMLute was coming toward me and another forget who it was but Lute had alt, one thing though, he did not have to do or say anything, but he was gentleman enough to type out & say on vox headsup.   even though he was only 2k out......

but to be in a 3 way tangle trying to avoid 1 bogey while trying to shoot another, and each time you look up you see a lone icon flying circles around the 3 of you, not engaging, not diving thru and climbing up, just sitting there doing nothing is pure bullmalarky, and I would hope all who fly in these tournaments would agree the same.  They are breaking a rule by not mixing it up when they are within range of another opponent.....ok am done now


TC
« Last Edit: April 25, 2005, 12:28:41 PM by TequilaChaser »
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Nuke33

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The Hovering Non Fighting KOTH Vulchers
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2005, 01:01:14 PM »
Maybe bigmax should lower the alt limit and shrink the radar circle.. that might help out with that type of thing.. maybe set the cap at 5k or something.. that gives plenty of room for manuvering...

Offline 214thCavalier

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The Hovering Non Fighting KOTH Vulchers
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2005, 01:53:14 PM »
5K is ridiculous one good zoom and you have to bail for rule infringement.
Fights are not just for the horizontal plane.

Offline Nuke33

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The Hovering Non Fighting KOTH Vulchers
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2005, 02:18:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 214thCavalier
5K is ridiculous one good zoom and you have to bail for rule infringement.
Fights are not just for the horizontal plane.


Well it was just a thought.. I guess we'll continue getting the same ol' stuff

Offline Shuckins

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The Hovering Non Fighting KOTH Vulchers
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2005, 07:55:04 PM »
Tequila,

As I explained to Max, I could not get the radar circle to come up on my map.

I did bail the first time that it happened.  After discussing the problem with him, he stated that he would keep an eye on me and let me know if I was in danger of doing it again.

Obviously, that was a bit difficult for him to do, what with so many aircraft involved in the event.   The second time it happened, I was going for separation and did not notice that the engage command had gone out.

I explained to all the sundry what had happened, and I thought that most of them had understood.  Evidently, you didn't.

I wasn't trying to exploit the situation.  We were in round 8 or 9 of the event, and I was just trying to stick around to see the finale.  Max was aware of my problem, and didn't insist on me bailing when it happened the second time.  I died very quickly as soon as I entered the first engagement upon returning to the circle.

So holster your invective.  I simply don't want to win that badly.   By that point in time, there wasn't a prayer of that happening anyway.

Regards, Shuckins

Offline WMLute

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The Hovering Non Fighting KOTH Vulchers
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2005, 08:33:35 PM »
my 2 cents

If you are hovering over the fight, and have not made any attempt at a pass on the enemy's below you, or basically just flying around in circles waiting, the 60 second rule DOES apply.  KOTH is about fighting, not just being the last man standing.  
If you are over a fight, and no other con's in the area, and are just circling waiting, you HAVE to fight if you are there over 60 seconds.

I'll give you two examples what I consider "acceptable" hovering.

I approach a fight, there are three con's on the deck, one at 4k, and myself at say 6k.  Who am I going to go for?  Well, for me, the 4k guy is the threat, so I will fight him.  Granted, I will probably b/z the guy, and attemt to "herd" 'em into the OTHERS fighting, and hopefully they mix it up, and I can cherrypick 'em at my leisure.  That is ok in my book.  You are ON the 4k con, and are maneuvering them into a position for you to kill them, and not blowing your E advantage.  You are not just flying around in circles.  You ARE in the fight, you just are not t/b on the deck w/ 'em.  Many (most) will do this.  Some feel that it breaks the spirit of KOTH.  I consider it 100% acceptable.  KOTH is not just about knife fighting.  It's about SA, and flying smart as well.

I will use the last fight of KOTH for my second example.  Myself and ManeTMP were going at it, and Jish was over both of us w/ alt.  Mane was deck, I was prob 2k over 'em, and Jish 3k over me.  Jish basically let us tear each other apart.  He DID make a couple zooms into the fray, but having my hands full with Mane, I wasn't checking the time.  In THIS example, I feel that Jish would have to at least make ONE b/z attack per min.  minimum.  In this example, I hit Mane's oil, and fuel iirc, and caused him to blow most his ammo trying to catch me zooming w/ that reversal he does (he REALLY wanted me dead, and shot like crazy).  Eventually, Mane caught me on a good d600 ish shot, and I lost my tail.  Jish ended up being 4k over a plane that was leaking fuel and oil, and had hardly any ammo.  Smart flying on his part.  He did the correct thing in my opinion, flew smart, and took the KOTH by doing so.  Now some might say he shoulda dove in, and mixed it up with me and mane, and shouldn't have just stayed above waiting us out.  I disagree with  that.  As long as he was not hovering for over a min. at a time, and was at least somewhat actively attacking, he did the right thing.


About fight avoidance.  As long as your are chasing a con, you do not have to break off that con, and jump into another fight below you.  This has been argued about a lot.  Let's say myself and another pilot are both "ON" a guy, and chasing him.  We are both 1-2k back from them, but only 500' from each other.  Do we have to fight each other because we are 500' apart?  In my opinion no we do not.  We can choose to fight whomever we want.  IF we are already ON someone, and that someone tries to drag us to others fighting, we do not have to break off and fight THOSE guys.  Silly argument.  If you think about it, using that logic, the guy doing the dragging would also have to quit running, and attack those same planes he drug us to.  Makes no sense to be upset that when you drug someone to another plane, and the guy you are dragging didn't break off you start fighting the new con.  With that logic, you yourself would have to immediatly attack the new con in that situation.  

This avoidance situation get's even more muddled when TWO TIMERS are involved.  I can not count how many times I was sitting with two wins, and had 3-5 guys all attacking me, and not each other.  Did I get upset?  Not really, no.  Is that "wrong"?  Nope.  They can choose to fight who they want, and by eliminating the two timer, they get to fight on for another round.  THAT is part of KOTH in my opinion.  Does it get frustrating for the two timers sometimes?   Sure.  After 5-10 rounds of being ganged like that I do get somewhat frustrated, but I also understand that it is how it works.  Heck, it can be alot of fun as well.  Now, let's say you see a two timer, and between you and them are two mini furballs below you.  Do you HAVE to dive into the closest furball and fight?  I don't feel you do.  You can choose to fly by those fights, and attack the two timer.  BUT we might consider a rule re. this.  If, let's say, to get to said two timer, you have to fly for over a min. to reach them, flying by several fights.  I would think a good idea would be that if you have to fly by fights for over a min to reach said two timer, you are breaking the 60 second rule.  For this rule to apply, we have to decide how far out you can be to be considered ON, chasing, or attacking someone.  Icon range?  3k?  It should be decided, and a fixed distance.  I believe it should be icon range.  If I am within icon range of a con, and flying right at them, I should be considered actively engaged with said pilot.  

Interesting topic.
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Offline Hornet

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The Hovering Non Fighting KOTH Vulchers
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2005, 09:26:34 PM »
damn sorry I missed it
Hornet