Author Topic: QUOTE "La-7 is 44 mph faster than the Fw-190"...  (Read 859 times)

Offline 1K3

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QUOTE "La-7 is 44 mph faster than the Fw-190"...
« on: April 29, 2005, 11:22:26 PM »
some quote(s) i found on the internet

"La-7 is 44 mph faster than Fw-190"...

are they comparing the La-7 to 190As?

Offline Shane

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QUOTE "La-7 is 44 mph faster than the Fw-190"...
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2005, 01:52:08 AM »
no.. to the ta-152's....  proof the la7 in ah is porked!!!

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Offline Furball

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QUOTE "La-7 is 44 mph faster than the Fw-190"...
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2005, 06:01:38 AM »
I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.
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Offline Crumpp

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QUOTE "La-7 is 44 mph faster than the Fw-190"...
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2005, 10:23:50 AM »
Quote
"La-7 is 44 mph faster than Fw-190"...


Yes to some of the FW-190 ground attack varients captured by the VVS.

Additionally the La 7 did not achieve this level of performance until the last few weeks of the war.

On the deck it is equal to the FW-190A8 in  fall 1944 and in April 1945 slower than the FW-190D9.

La7 in August 1944:

http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/Perform.html#No.452101-39

The FW-190A8/A9 engine upgrades brought the deck Vmax to 595kph begining in July 44.

La 7 in April of 1945:

http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/Perform.html#La%207%20No.%20452132-76

The Dora was hitting speeds of 640kph on the deck at this time.  This is why the VVS flew every Dora they could get their hands on in their own squadron in the last weeks of the war.



All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Tilt

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QUOTE "La-7 is 44 mph faster than the Fw-190"...
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2005, 11:34:31 AM »
Crump is basically correct IMO.........

Early batches used excess resin glue to fill in poor joints in the ply frame and so were coming off the productions lines upto 70kg over weight.

The problem had come and gone during La5 production development but  the La7 started with new wing root design that took some time to get right under production.

Also poor  sealing of the engine cowls could account for upto 5 Km/h.

The thing to remember about the La7 is that it was a streamlined La5FN with approx 120 to 150 kg of weight saving.

It recieved no extra power over the La5FN although it did get  a  better prop.

If you check Dora issue to the Eastern front you will see they did not get there untill very late. The VVS did not really encounter the Dora in any strength and not at all  (really) untill they were over German skys.
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Offline Tilt

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QUOTE "La-7 is 44 mph faster than the Fw-190"...
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2005, 12:14:24 PM »
With the caveat that I am no expert in aero design there has always been one facet of AH's La7 model that I did not come to grips with.

This is the  balance of  total thrust  v total drag.

AH seems to hit all the right numbers re climb, accel, top speed etc

But I keep going back in my mind to a trial undertaken in  Oct 44 comparing the La7 with a captured 109G4.

The La7 beat the G4 in every department (as we would expect) except one.

Dive performance.

It says this (after translation)

Quote
The La7 accelerates into the dive faster than the Me-109 and therefore can reduce the distance to an escaping target. However in continuous dive the Me-109 increases its speed faster after initial acceleration and departs fropm the La7


To me there came a point where the La7's higher thrust could no longer bring benefit (over a 109G4)due to the higher total drag at high dive speeds.

Whilst the 109G4's lesser thrust could then bring more benefit due to  lesser total drag.

Now try this in AH with a G6...........

The La7 will catch the G6 every time in a dive............ the G6 will not pull away in the later phase.

Why?

1)well the G6 could be porked but there is much more data available for this ac than the La7

2) looking at the La7 I often wonder if AH should give both more drag and more thrust to hit the same numbers as it does now.

This would IMO bring about two effects a) alot more stuff could evade/catch the la7 in a long dive b) the La7 would scrub e more quickly when chopping throttle.

http://www.tilt.clara.net/data/PAGE01.GIF

http://www.tilt.clara.net/data/page01gif.rtf


Edit word "induced" removed due to a confusion with the proper use of the term. (Thanks Virage)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2005, 02:11:41 PM by Tilt »
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Offline Virage

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QUOTE "La-7 is 44 mph faster than the Fw-190"...
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2005, 02:00:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tilt
To me there came a point where the La7's higher thrust could no longer bring benefit (over a 109G4)due to the higher induced drag at high dive speeds.
 


Induced drag ( drag due to lift ) decreases at high speeds / low angle of attack.  Form drag , the force needed to push an object thru the air, increases greatly with speed.

It is a small point, but I think there is much more information on determining a wings induced drag then there is determining a plane's form drag in various configurations, angles of attack and speed ranges.  At slow speeds form drag is not as much a factor.  

I believe the lack of hard form drag numbers (both clean and with flaps ) may account for some of AH's performance questions.
JG11

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Offline TimRas

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QUOTE "La-7 is 44 mph faster than the Fw-190"...
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2005, 02:18:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
The Dora was hitting speeds of 640kph on the deck at this time.


That is 398 mph. You have proof ?

Offline 1K3

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QUOTE "La-7 is 44 mph faster than the Fw-190"...
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2005, 10:57:57 PM »
398 mph @ deck...

is that done in actual combat or tested in factory?

Offline Don

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QUOTE "La-7 is 44 mph faster than the Fw-190"...
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2005, 02:26:26 PM »
Shane said:
>>no.. to the ta-152's.... proof the la7 in ah is porked!!! <<

Tilt said:
>>The La7 beat the G4 in every department (as we would expect) except one.
Dive performance. <<

About a year ago I was in a P-47d-25 at about 25k we ran into some Bish co-alt and got into a fight. There was this la7 who got on my 6 (no surprise there) and so I tried to dive away, thinking there was no way this lala could stay with me...I was wrong. My speed got up to 450 kts and I wasn't pulling away from this guy, in fact he was gaining on me! He did not compress or waver in any way, just stayed right there on my 6, and shot my wing off. I watched him simply pull up and away without effort. I have known ever since then how porked the la7 is; I won't fly em, and look forward to shooting them down every chance I get.

Offline Tilt

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QUOTE "La-7 is 44 mph faster than the Fw-190"...
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2005, 04:43:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Don
My speed got up to 450 kts and I wasn't pulling away from this guy, in fact he was gaining on me! He did not compress or waver in any way, just stayed right there on my 6,  


I can assure you that his cockpit was shaking as his speed came over 450 and to stay with you he would have had to switch CT off and re trim to hold nose down.........

In actuality the La7 was stable at 450 and even rechlin tests of the La5 showed that control authority was still there at this speed albeit a little stiff.

The only comparative dive performance (re acceleration) I have is with the somewhat slimmer 109..........you would have to compare the jug from there.......... it was a bit of a brick (form?) drag wise.
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