Author Topic: OK -- so maybe Wirbelwinds ARE a good idea  (Read 1606 times)

Offline Simaril

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OK -- so maybe Wirbelwinds ARE a good idea
« on: May 01, 2005, 12:02:23 PM »
At first was against this "osty with 4x20s" -- because "base defense" can so easily be spelled "stagnation."

But after consideration, I think it could be a nice addition -- IF the vehicle were lightly perked. That would hold the numbers down some, and avoid tipping the balance too far towards the defense.

Advantages of the addition?
1. Low initial coding investment. Take Osty, remove 30mm data, add 4x20s and some duct tape. Job fininshed.
2. Would make roach hunting more... interesting. Watch the "FLAK" icon change to OST or WIRB when you get close... and be sure you know where the relief tube is.
3. Would (maybe?) help the AA learning curve , more rounds in the air to judge lead etc.
4. Adds to GV'ers game without the time and effort required subtracting meaningfully from the Air game improvements.

Disadvantages?
1. Increases AA lethality. SO -- the Air-to ground guys have to learn to drop sooner, which we probably should anyway. IRL, AA equipped areas were treated with great respect.
2. Potential disruption of paly balance. WEll, havaing it perked would help, and give the GV'ers something else to spend their perks on. And, if balance shifts too far, the perk cost could be adjusted. But, to be honest, I dont think a perked Wirbelwind would tip things far at all.

Well, that's off teh top of my head (not  much up there anymore, but that;s another topic). Any thoughts?
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Offline Heretic

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OK -- so maybe Wirbelwinds ARE a good idea
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2005, 12:27:55 PM »
I don't think the Whirblewind should be perked.    It wouldn't be hard to kill if you have bombers on station and alert them to the whereabouts of  the flak monster.  

I have over 2,400 GV perks.   I never use em.  Can I trade em in for an upgrade?    Anybody want some?

Offline Simaril

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OK -- so maybe Wirbelwinds ARE a good idea
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2005, 04:08:50 PM »
Perk value is affected by survivability, but also by lethality. 4x20mm cannons, with tight cone of fire and little convergence spread, are VERY lethal -- and so I feel are worth perking.

Without Wirbelwind perks, the Ostwind would become a hangar queen -- and most importantly, the base attack/air-to-ground balnce of power would shift decidedly. Since things are roughly in equal balance now, with an arguable tilt towards the aircraft, a major shift towards the GVs would likely result in game imbalance.
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Offline MOIL

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OK -- so maybe Wirbelwinds ARE a good idea
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2005, 04:13:35 PM »
Great post Simaril,

First off the Wirbelwind wouldn't need to be perked, it's no more deadly than the Ostwind.
The Wirbelwind does not have reach the Ostwind has. The Wirbelwind is just as vunerable to enemy fire as the Ostwind, the turret which was nicknamed the "keksdose"- cookie tin, which only offered marginal protection for the crew.

The only big difference between the two is that the Wirbelwind can spit out more rounds per second {like the M16} but has fewer rounds per magazine {20 per mag} than the Ostwind.
If modeled correctly there would be reload time, like in a tank, a few sec's you could not fire.

It would be like having a N1k2 on the ground shooting up, I don't know of any pilots in the game that get on someone's six and shoot at them from 1.5 to 2.0k out. I doubt you would ever hit them. I'm not a 100% sure due to the fact I don't fly too often, I could be wrong here.

Next we have the issue of balance, you state might tip the balance too far towards the defence.
I would have to disagree, NOT because I'm in favor of the Wirbelwind, but due to the fact it is virtually imposible to stop an organized attack.
 
1) For fair to good defence {against enemy A/C} you need a minimum of 3-4 AA guns shooting at ONE target in order to be effective. If a bomber group {or two} happen to make it to the field and are low enough to be hit by Ostwinds or field guns, almost all guns have to be trained on that target to maybe bring it down. Meanwhile the other enemy A/C are strafing and bombing the ground targets into oblivion. A large number of these guys {you know who you are} can place a 250-500lbr right on top of a GV everytime.

2) Nine times out of ten there is not enough AA guns at a field, as most are in planes {most of the time} Keep in mind these are observations from my crew and other countrymen over the last 3 yrs in AH

3) The current field AA defense system is sub par at best, a decent to good pilot can de-ack the field in sec's {excluding Port ack} which brings me to another point. Why is it that so many "hate" going in on a port? because you have a lot of guns shooting at you. Which by the way is how it's spose to be, it is a place of high importance.

4) As it is right now there is almost nothing one can do for the most part to stop an organized or "horde" attack. The VH gets dropped almost immediately, low flying and dive bombing Lanc's, B17's, B26's and B24's can wipe out and carpet bomb an entire field in min's.
So if there's a complaint or issue with "balance" I would have to say it's definitely in favor of the enemy A/C and not the ground defense's.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see the Wirbelwind in the game, not because it's some kind of "Uber" weapon It just happens to be my favorite German veh of WWII.
I honestly don't think if it were in the game it would make that much difference to game play outcome, no more than the LA7 or Spit14 does. Think about it for a second, when's the last time you saw 15-20 LA7's attacking and taking an airfield?  Thought so, yet it is one of the most talked about A/C in the game {and it's not even perked!!}

I would like to see all around better systems for defence, almost all would agree that it is better to have a tough challange to take a base than it is too just roll in, de-ack real quick, drop a couple hangers, kill the city, setup a vulch {vulch light on, remember this one} and take the base. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I'm not saying EVERYONE in the game plays like this, nor do I want people to play "my way". That would be boring.

I honestly believe that more players like a big fire fight at an airfield or base than simply steam-rollin' um.
We used to have some of the best fights in AH1 at fields with GV's all over, fighters duking it out overhead, tracer rounds flying all over the place, total white knuckle fighting. Friends and enemies alike would each other and we would have a ball. Sometimes we kept the field, sometimes we lost. But what a fight it usually was. Now a lot of times it just seems to be a big gang-bang land grab, cherry pick vulch vest slaughter house alt fight horde run type game than anything. I guess it's the persons right and it is their $14.95, so who am I to say.
I have said it before and I'll say it again, when you have a game based on "perks", "points" and "rank" that's just how people will play wrong, right or indifferent it's the truth. Not to mention it's all personal, "you shot down LTARmoil"  now imagine if it said "you killed an enemy GV" or "you shot down a Zeke"  
In WWII a pilot didn't get a message on his canopy telling him he shot down Cpt. Vonpickaname?

Oh well just a game;)

Offline Furball

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Re: OK -- so maybe Wirbelwinds ARE a good idea
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2005, 05:46:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
Any thoughts?


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Offline Gwjr2

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OK -- so maybe Wirbelwinds ARE a good idea
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2005, 06:52:35 PM »
Furballs buyn  :D
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Offline LTARokit

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OK -- so maybe Wirbelwinds ARE a good idea
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2005, 10:21:43 PM »
Moil well stated :aok

BTW, HTC sent out for more paper so u can finish :lol

Offline Nefarious

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OK -- so maybe Wirbelwinds ARE a good idea
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2005, 11:58:37 PM »



Whirbel Who?

Lets see some more Heavy Armor First.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline MOIL

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OK -- so maybe Wirbelwinds ARE a good idea
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2005, 03:32:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nefarious



Whirbel Who?

Lets see some more Heavy Armor First.


Not a bad looking ride, what is it?

Offline YUCCA

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OK -- so maybe Wirbelwinds ARE a good idea
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2005, 03:33:58 AM »
Just a king tiger of sorts...

Need a pershing.. sherman.. panther thats all i can think of :)

Offline Schutt

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OK -- so maybe Wirbelwinds ARE a good idea
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2005, 03:47:27 AM »
Where is my leopard 2?

Offline Simaril

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OK -- so maybe Wirbelwinds ARE a good idea
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2005, 07:34:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MOIL
Great post Simaril,

First off the Wirbelwind wouldn't need to be perked, it's no more deadly than the Ostwind.
The Wirbelwind does not have reach the Ostwind has. The Wirbelwind is just as vunerable to enemy fire as the Ostwind, the turret which was nicknamed the "keksdose"- cookie tin, which only offered marginal protection for the crew.


I hear that, but osty turrents in AH aren't "cookie tin" easy to knock out.

The only big difference between the two is that the Wirbelwind can spit out more rounds per second {like the M16} but has fewer rounds per magazine {20 per mag} than the Ostwind.
If modeled correctly there would be reload time, like in a tank, a few sec's you could not fire.


That reload delay would be critical in making the vehicle less than Uber.

...snip...
Next we have the issue of balance, you state might tip the balance too far towards the defence.
I would have to disagree, NOT because I'm in favor of the Wirbelwind, but due to the fact it is virtually imposible to stop an organized attack.


Key word here is ORGANIZED. An organized attack will always have an advantage over the usual swarm of AH individuals. Organized attacks are frankly rare.


 
...snip...
I have said it before and I'll say it again, when you have a game based on "perks", "points" and "rank" that's just how people will play wrong, right or indifferent it's the truth. Not to mention it's all personal, "you shot down LTARmoil"  now imagine if it said "you killed an enemy GV" or "you shot down a Zeke"  
In WWII a pilot didn't get a message on his canopy telling him he shot down Cpt. Vonpickaname?


Good point; though I'd argue that the game is NOT "based on" rank. It's based on a simulation model, and those numebrs are there for people who care about them. Some use them as ego boosters; some as yardsticks for their own development, kind of a "personal record" tracker; some never look at them (so they say). The perks work rto give freedom (to fly anything) without shifting the play balance (by having an arena of 50% spit Vs and 50% 262s, with only tigers on the ground).

Oh well just a game;)



Agree 110% -- but WHAT a fun one!!!
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Offline Simaril

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OK -- so maybe Wirbelwinds ARE a good idea
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2005, 07:36:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MOIL
Not a bad looking ride, what is it?


You mayka me laff.
'

Seriously, this would be a great next fresh model IMHO. Probably worth coming out with the T-34/85 first though, with modelling partly done already.
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Offline IownU

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OK -- so maybe Wirbelwinds ARE a good idea
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2005, 09:16:03 AM »
out of all this no one posted a pic of the osti from h3ll but i agree with moil. alot dont want to see it come to AH cause they know that there will be some people that know how to shoot it its no diffrent then an osti if anything you have more advantage over it then an osti cause it does not have the same range. and yes i would love to see some more tanks be brought into the game. T-34s are over rated take a panzer any where from 3 to 10 hits to kill it and thats not even true in ww11 its turret was the only thing strong about it a panzer could but a hole in its side. tigers they are ok need some adustements but over all they are ok.

Offline Tarmac

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OK -- so maybe Wirbelwinds ARE a good idea
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2005, 09:34:53 AM »
Like Simaril said, why would anyone take an Ostwind if the Wirbelwind was unperked?  Besides its one hit kill ability, the Ostwind has nothing on the Wirbelwind.