Author Topic: A few religious question for catholics.  (Read 11392 times)

Offline BTAirsol

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A few religious question for catholics.
« Reply #105 on: May 06, 2005, 02:17:56 PM »
Nuke, why do you say that Jesus is not the Son of Mary? Read in Luke that it describes his birth. What about Mary being visited by the Angel Gabriel and talked to her about the conceptiion of the Son of God? Mary was the first Christian Nuke. She said yes to Gods plan.

Offline BTAirsol

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A few religious question for catholics.
« Reply #106 on: May 06, 2005, 02:23:29 PM »
Oboe, revered. We only worship God. We believe in the communion of saints, which we ask them to pray for us. We are all working saints in the making.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #107 on: May 06, 2005, 02:27:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BTAirsol
Nuke, why do you say that Jesus is not the Son of Mary? Read in Luke that it describes his birth. What about Mary being visited by the Angel Gabriel and talked to her about the conceptiion of the Son of God? Mary was the first Christian Nuke. She said yes to Gods plan.


Jesus was born to Mary, but was the son of God. God himself sent to earth. Mary was not an authority figure to Jesus when he started his ministry. She was just another woman on earth.

Can you give some examples in the bible where Jesus or anyone else instructs that Mary is to be prayed to or followed in any way?

Mary may have been the first Christian, I agree

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #108 on: May 06, 2005, 02:27:20 PM »
Nuke you are as ignorant as they come.

You know nothing about Catholicism or Christianity in general.

As I explained in Vulcan's thread the Bible did not spontaneously generate itself. It was compiled from many works.

To understand the Bible and to understand Orthodox Christianity you need to come to grips with this fact.

The Bible or Sacred Scriptures are not separate from the Sacred Traditions of the Church. 'Bible Worship' alone is just as heretical as 'Idol worship'.

Back to Mary and the Saints once again:

Mary is alive in heaven. She hears our prayers and joins in them. With out any concept of the Sacred Traditions of the Church you won't ever get it. Your ignorance only proves your ignorance, nothing else.

Mary is not prayed to but asked to join in our prayers or to pray for us (intercede).

In reference to the Holy Father:

Peter was chosen by Jesus to build his church. All the Popes through out history directly descended from this line.

The term 'Holy Father' doesn't refer to the divinity of the Pope but to his roll with in the Church. The word 'Holy doesn't mean "God Like". The Pope is the Steward of the flock but is not an intermediary between the flock and God. You are the one who is confused. Any one who has spent 10 minutes in Catholic School would know this.

Name one Catholic Ritual and what it means with in the Sacred Tradition of the Church.

You asked 'why Catholics do these things...', well the answer is they don't. Either you are lying about your Catholic education or you suffer from some mental defect that didn't allow you to understand what you were taught.

BTW, I am not a Christian (Catholic or other wise). If one is going to make judgments about 'religion' it only stands to reason that one would take the time to fully understand what it is they 'are judging'.

Nuke himself claims "I am just asking questions' but goes out his way to claim that Catholics aren't Christians. Its clear he has not even the basic understanding of Christianity in general and more specifically of Orthodox Christianity.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #109 on: May 06, 2005, 02:29:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan
Mary is not prayed to but asked to join in our prayers or to pray for us (intercede).

 


How do you ask her to join in your prayers?

The bible is the living word of God, not the word and traditions of the catholic Church.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2005, 02:33:35 PM by NUKE »

Offline BTAirsol

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« Reply #110 on: May 06, 2005, 02:33:53 PM »
Woton try not to attack Nuke, he has the courage to ask. He beleives strongly on his thoughts. The accusations seperate us instead of bringing us together. If his heart is truthful and he wants to know why, well we answered him. If this was a troll topic well maybe someone got something out of this thread.

Offline BTAirsol

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« Reply #111 on: May 06, 2005, 02:40:49 PM »
Nuke do you know the Hail Mary prayer? That is one way we pray. "Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed are you among women and blessed is thy fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God PRAY FOR US NOW AND AT THE HOUR OF OUR DEATH, AMEN."

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #112 on: May 06, 2005, 02:43:02 PM »
Why would you pray to Mary and ask her to pray for you when all you have to do is pray to Jesus?

Offline BTAirsol

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« Reply #113 on: May 06, 2005, 02:47:04 PM »
Nuke I need all the help that I can get. I do pray to our father, Son and Holy Spirit. I ask for someone to put in a good word for me. We ask others to pray for us. Don't you or ever have you asked for prayers? Like family illness to be healed or lost love one? We ask people to pray for us, why not ask the ones that are in heaven to pray they are with the numero uno.

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #114 on: May 06, 2005, 02:51:16 PM »
Of course its a troll like 99% of his posts he is just looking for some one to talk with.

Even now he tries to play word games instead of taking the time to read and understand the context of 'prayed to' as he inferred it and how it is meant in my paragraph above.

He claims Catholics 'worship Mary' by praying to her as if she is equal to 'God'. Just like he plays word games with the phrase "Holy Father" to mean "God Like'.

His replies are typical of his personality and at least imho are a sign of his desperation for human contact.

He is not curious about Catholicism. He is simply using this topic of the day to garner attention.

Even now he comes with this Stupidity:

Quote
Why would you pray to Mary and ask her to pray for you when all you have to do is pray to Jesus?


Its well with in the Orthodox and Christian tradition to invoke others into joining in prayer with you. Protestants have their 'prayer requests'; those in need typically ask for others to join in their prayers, those who suffer losses ask others to pray for who ever it was (see Bodhi's thread). Nuke is just playing games so that folks talk to him.

I explained to Nuke already that:

Quote
Mary isn't worshiped neither are any of the Saints. They (or one in particular) are asked to pray with us or implored to intercede for us because we believe that when two or more are gathered in prayer our the power of our prayers are greater. If you went to Catholic school surely you have heard of intercession.. (I doubt you did though).

It has nothing to do with 'worshiping' of Mary.

Prayers always are in the name of Jesus. The Pope is not an intermediary for prayer or for a relationship with God.


He just plays dumb and asks the same thing over and over. I typically don't respond to his nonsense and Dinger may be right in the use of the ignore feature but I think its clear to every one here what Nuke is really after.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #115 on: May 06, 2005, 02:52:23 PM »
Sure, but why Mary? Why not pray to Moses or Joseph?

The point is that Mary is not mentioned by Jesus or the bible as someone to be revered in any way. The Catholic church has turned Mary into a distraction, in my opinon.

Offline BTAirsol

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« Reply #116 on: May 06, 2005, 02:57:48 PM »
Wotan, I hear what you are saying. There might be a time in Nukes life that he might reflect on what was said and then be sincere about looking into the truth the correct way. I know one thing, I would not want that judgement on my soul. Think of it as what Saul (St. Paul) was doing by persicuting the christians. The Lord new what he was doing and Paul converted. Maybe Nuke....?

Offline JAGED

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« Reply #117 on: May 06, 2005, 02:58:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
Sure, but why Mary? Why not pray to Moses or Joseph?

The point is that Mary is not mentioned by Jesus or the bible as someone to be revered in any way. The Catholic church has turned Mary into a distraction, in my opinon.

You also stated earlier that "She was just another woman on earth."  How many other women on earth do you know that was assumed bodily into heaven?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2005, 03:21:34 PM by JAGED »
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Offline WMLute

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A few religious question for catholics.
« Reply #118 on: May 06, 2005, 03:07:45 PM »
1.Though English words like 'worship' and 'adoration' are occasionally used to signify only veneration, honor or affection, they are generally understood to refer to that highest type of worship reserved for God alone. In this sense, Catholics do NOT adore or worship Mary, or any other created person or thing.


The Ecumenical Council held at Nicaea in 787 considered the issue of veneration which is not directed to the Divine persons in relation to sacred images. At this Council, the Church taught that the special type of worship called adoration may only be offered to God: Latria from the Greek term for enslavement. However, the Church also acknowledged that certain persons, though only creatures of God, are entitled to honor or veneration of a qualitatively lesser degree than the absolute allegiance owed to God. The Conciliar Fathers termed this lesser devotion: Dulia. Such veneration was proper for Mary and the Saints. In view of Mary's important role in salvation history as Mother of Jesus, the Church recognized that Mary warranted a special degree of honor among the Saints. For this class of devotion, St. Thomas Aquinas (d. 1274) suggested the term hyperdulia.


No, Catholics do not worship Mary, if by worshiping is meant adoring. She is not God for us, has never been and will never be. Addressing prayer to Mary is like asking a dear and close friend for help. Do we make a God of our friend when asking him to keep us in his prayers? Do we divinize him/her when asking for his prayerful support in sickness and the trials of life? Believers on earth and in heaven constitute a living community which the major Christian denominations recognize as the communion of saints. The saints in heaven are not dead. Their Christian example of virtuous living and their closeness to God make of them powerful allies for us struggling mortals. They do not take God's place; they are an expression of his grace.

Likewise, there is nothing in Mary that would not have been in God and come from him. She is a pure product of God; this is the essential meaning of Mary's sinlessness. Never forget: if God wanted the exclusively direct relation between him and you and me he would never send Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son of God, never allow scripture to be the foundation of our faith, never encourage his Son to found the Church or institute the sacraments. Christianity is the religion of mediation, essential and foundational in Christ; participative and subordinate in his Church and in varying degrees in the believers.




2.The traditional story of the rosary was that Mary herself appeared to Saint Dominic in the twelfth century. At that time, tradition says she gave him the rosary and promised Dominic that if he spread devotion to the rosary, his religious order would flourish. It is quite true that Dominic was quite devoted to the Blessed Mother, but no one knows for sure if Our Lady herself gave Dominic the rosary. If she did, it is quite certain that she did not give him a rosary that looks like the one we have today.

Originally the rosary had 150 beads, the same number of psalms in the Bible. In the twelfth century, religious orders recited together the 150 Psalms as a way to mark the hours of the day and the days of the week. Those people who didn’t know how to read wanted to share in this practice, so praying on a string of 150 beads or knots began as a parallel to praying the psalms. It was a way that the illiterate could remember the Lord and his mother throughout the day. The “Divine Office”; the official prayer of the church; is the recitation of the psalms over a four week period, and is still prayed today.

This first rosary was prayed as we do today, a person would pass their fingers over each bead and say a prayer, usually the “Our Father”.




4.The discipline of confessing sins to a priest and having him set a penance to make satisfaction is a practice from the Old Testament (See Numbers 5:5 and Leviticus 5:5).  The idea of examination of conscience and the confession of sin was the norm for Jews (e.g., Leviticus 26:40, Ezra 10:1, Nehemiah 9:2-3, Daniel 9:20) especially on the Day of Atonement (e.g., Leviticus 16:21).  So much so that St. John could say:

1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and
just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us
from all unrighteousness.

And St. James:

James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to one
another, and pray for one another, that you
may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man
has great power in its effects.

In the first several Christian Centuries, there was public confession of sin (usually to the Bishop) and public penance.  Around the 4th Century, the Monks in Ireland had developed a method for spiritual direction which involved the private confession of sin to a spiritual director.  This style of confessing sins in secret was quite successful as a tool for spiritual direction.  The Bishops decided to use it as the normative way of hearing confession and absolving from sin.  This also was the occasion for the development of less public and less severe penances for sin.  Spiritual direction replaced most of the more punitive public penances.

That is where our current custom of confession came from.


(geez nuke.  don't ya' got google?)
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Offline BTAirsol

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A few religious question for catholics.
« Reply #119 on: May 06, 2005, 03:14:52 PM »
WMLute, right on bro. Well put.