A question about the spit9

[jetb123]

Okay me and a guy in the h2h arena, we're going 1v1 I was in spit9 he was in hurri2C. We would merge, and everytime I would loop over him, and get a inside shot on him. He said there is no way I should be able to do this. Was it a bug? Or was he just not flying the hurri as it should.

[SuperDud]

I'd say the pilot would be a big factor in this(you making the spit9 seem much better).  Normally I'd say in a straight out TnB dogfight Hurri has major adv. If you start getting into E fighting and fighting in the verticle, spit9 will more than likely win. In a spit9 I'd treat the hurri like a zeke and just rope it, not sure if thats what you're doing when you say "loop over him"?

[jetb123]

Originally posted by SuperDud
I'd say the pilot would be a big factor in this(you making the spit9 seem much better).  Normally I'd say in a straight out TnB dogfight Hurri has major adv. If you start getting into E fighting and fighting in the verticle, spit9 will more than likely win. In a spit9 I'd treat the hurri like a zeke and just rope it, not sure if thats what you're doing when you say "loop over him"?

 I mean when saying loop over is. I would dive, pull up, loop over, and he would be turning I would get a shot by comming out of a loop and kinda diving into him, and getting shot on him.

[Ack-Ack]

No it's not a bug.  When you are looping over like that and he's in a flat turn, you will get a shot on him on the downside of your loop.  The reason why is you're basically cutting inside of his turn with the loop.  Imagine two circles, one in the horizontal plane and the other in the vertical plane and put them together.  You'll see that the circle in the vertical plane (your loop) fits inside of the circle in the horizontal plane (his flat turn) giving you an angle for the shot.

ack-ack

[jetb123]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
No it's not a bug.  When you are looping over like that and he's in a flat turn, you will get a shot on him on the downside of your loop.  The reason why is you're basically cutting inside of his turn with the loop.  Imagine two circles, one in the horizontal plane and the other in the vertical plane and put them together.  You'll see that the circle in the vertical plane (your loop) fits inside of the circle in the horizontal plane (his flat turn) giving you an angle for the shot.

ack-ack

 Ahh cool, that answers my question. Thanks!

[TexMurphy]

There is soo many pilots that think they cant be out turned just because they are in a tight turning plane. Sure in a flat turn spinnoramaofdweebyness they cant, change that they can because there is always someone who can turn that plane tighter. But its not about what plane turns tightest when all you can do is just do flat turns.

I always use the immelman after a merge to get the high position on the enemies six if he flat turns and if he does I can get a shot at him in any plane. Atm Im doing this on a regular basis to SpitVs in a Jug.

Flat turn is about the worst manouver one can do in combat (unless dodging a BnZer on your six). Flat turn will only "save" the enemy if Im dumb enough to follow him through it. But instead if I use ACMs I can get a shot on him in tons of different ways in much much much less agile planes.

Next time he says "thats impossible" you say "welcome to the world of ACMs".

Tex

[Blooz]

The Hurricane was probably turning too tight. As you looped up in the Spitfire (a vertical turn), he turned flat (horizontal turn) and turned so tight that he ended up in front of you as you came down. Had he turned less sharply you may have come down in front of him giving him a shot.

[TexMurphy]

Originally posted by Blooz
The Hurricane was probably turning too tight. As you looped up in the Spitfire (a vertical turn), he turned flat (horizontal turn) and turned so tight that he ended up in front of you as you came down. Had he turned less sharply you may have come down in front of him giving him a shot.

No.

Its not about turning to tight.

If you take a 180 degree reverse then the Immelman is sooo much faster then a flat turn that the flat turner usually is just 90-110 degrees through his turn when you complete your Immelman. The flat turner doesnt need to screw up his turn in anyway for this to be true, he can be turning it 100% optimaly.

His screw up is that he flat turned in the first place.

The ammount of flat turning in the MA is freeekin amazing, makes baby jesus cry.

Most people whine about HOs or running pilots but seriously what makes me cry the most is all the freekin flat turning. It makes me cry because I know that as long as pilots keep flying that way they will never ever improve.

Im not claiming to be a good pilot but I do want my co players to keep evolving so that as I evolve as pilot the challange will always be there.

Tex.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
No it's not a bug.  When you are looping over like that and he's in a flat turn, you will get a shot on him on the downside of your loop.  The reason why is you're basically cutting inside of his turn with the loop.  Imagine two circles, one in the horizontal plane and the other in the vertical plane and put them together.  You'll see that the circle in the vertical plane (your loop) fits inside of the circle in the horizontal plane (his flat turn) giving you an angle for the shot.

ack-ack

just to add a tad bit, your vertical loop/turn  also allows you the advantage of rolling your lift vector easier to reacquire your target . regardless of where he is in his flat turn you will be able to roll into his direction.

but be weary of the break turning flyer who is suckering you in. He may  be hiding his E, and fool you on the second rev.

Yes there are alot of players who resort to a flat turn, but their are just as many that go for the loop or immelman  or the split S / dive way below when you go up.  don't get into a routine of doing the exact same thing on every merge you encounter, mix it up.  and never lose sight of the enemy, unless you know exactly where he is and what his plane is doing when you can not see him. ( btw I should follow my own advice sometimes )

[Schatzi]

Flat turning the Hurri (or any kind of plane) in this kind of merge will give almost every other plane a shot, no matter their turning abilities.


Now, regarding 'tight turning'. I might be wrong here, but most people confuse tightest turn radius (short time) and sustained turning. The Hurri i know (and fly) has a very tight sustained turn rate. But if you try to reverse course (180 deg) in a flat turn at higher speed (in Hurri that means above 200 mph!) it will feel like a whale trying to change direction. If on the other hand you cut throttle and pull up for an immelman - maybe even flaps at the top - youll have turned around in the blink of an eye.


Edit: Oh, and i have had people flying circles around my Hurri in every kind of plane. Thats when i know im about to die. Sooner rather than later! No - no cheating, just waaaayy better flying than mine .

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by Schatzi
Flat turning the Hurri (or any kind of plane) in this kind of merge will give almost every other plane a shot, no matter their turning abilities.

Energy at the onset of the fight and plane match up plays an important role,  I can not go the route or opinion of any plane pulling a loop  verses a flat turning plane will gain a shot everytime.
just to many variables out there

edited:added but on this particular engagement jetb had acheived the angles advantage at the beginning of the merge and the fight ended in 1 turn or less maybe

Now, regarding 'tight turning'. I might be wrong here, but most people confuse tightest turn radius (short time) and sustained turning.

turning tighter than your best sustained turn rate for your particular plane will take longer  to complete if you are in a continous turn.  now an instantaneous turn you may be able to dump enough E to turn tight but just for an instant, or break turn, but most leave the break turn for a defense maneuver.

As for jetb's match up, we do not know the energy states of each plane, the skill level of each player,  we have been given basic details and  tryed to give jetb an answer to his question. Was all pilot  in my opinion for this particular engagement. I would think if jetb was in the hurri and the role was reversed jetb would still probably prevail....

using geometery in a fight ( think 3 D verses 2 D ) can also deceive your  opponents visual of you and where you are exactly in the plane of flight.  people think some can take a P47/P51 or FW190A8/D9 and out turn a slower better turning hurri/spitV /C202 etc..but they are flying out of plane while turning and the better turning opponent does not pick up on this, they actually think that Faster late war model plane is out turning them on the same playground ( flight path / plane of flight)

[TexMurphy]

Personally I think we are still focusing way to much on the flat turn in this thread.

Flat turns should only be used if a faster enemy is on your six and then ONLY if you can out turn him.

or

If you are comming in on enemies six and can out turn him if he is dumb enough to flat turn.

Other then that never use it.

Always think 3D. Always use both vertical and horizontal movement in your manouvers.

Die flat turn discussion die.

Tex

[Grizzly]

The single most important thing to do in dogfighting is E management, second only maybe to situation awareness. This is a perfect example. The Hurri did a flat turn and you did an Imelman. He used up nearly as much E (speed in this case) as you, but you converted your speed into altitude while he totally wasted his. Now you are above him, in the catbird seat. Net result, it doesn't matter how fast he could turn because, no matter which direction he ends up pointing, you ain't there. You could have gotten the same result if you were flying a C47.