Author Topic: A Freakin .22 ..................  (Read 8252 times)

Sandman_SBM

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A Freakin .22 ..................
« Reply #120 on: March 10, 2001, 09:45:00 AM »
 
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But hey, the argument is that mr. goodguy bought it to defend his house and loved ones...right?

Possibly. But, there's nothing in the U.S. Constitution that indicates a right to use firearms to defend your house against criminals. No federal court, including the U.S. Supreme Court, has ever overturned a gun control law on the grounds of the Second Amendment.

 
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but saying that a having a criminal break into yer house is SAFER than having a gun in yer house is well...quite possably the stupidest thing ive ever heard.

An Emory University study found that a gun kept in the home was 4 times more likely to be involved in an unintentional shooting, 7 times more likely to be used in a criminal assault or homicide, and 11 times more likely to be used to commit or attempt suicide, than to be used in self-defense.

 
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B: 135 times more children are killed in car accidents than by guns every year on average.

Every day, 12 children 19 years of age and under are killed by gunfire. According to a 1997 Center for Disease Control study, the firearms-related death rate for U.S. children under 15 is nearly 12 times higher than that of 25 industrialized countries combined.


Offline Tac

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« Reply #121 on: March 10, 2001, 04:59:00 PM »
"Only to a family of undereducated, STUPID MORONS, anything is dangersous if you are RETARDED..but saying that a having a criminal break into yer house is SAFER than having a gun in yer house is well...quite possably the stupidest thing ive ever heard."

Oh yes of course. I forgot that my house gets broken into once a week. And I also forgot that children have the maturity of a 30 year year old,college graduate with a good family background when it comes to handling weaponry. Assuming a 5 year old can understand that the gun he's seen dad hide and that he thinks is so cool (just like in the teevee!), is in reality a tool of death (that is, assuming the child is aware he can die).

BTW, in most cases a criminal in your house is not there to kill you, just to steal. Call 911 and tell them that someone is inside your house, im quite sure they will tell you to get out your shotgun and shoot him, 'cause its a lot safer.

My point is wobble, the person that decides how the encounter will go is the house owner. If you oppose the criminal with a firearm, you drastically endager yourself and your family.

Doesnt your house alarm have "panic" buttons? Press it and the alarms start screaming, main lights of the house turn on and the police is automatically notified. Ask the company that makes your alarms if they offer this service, it is very effective.

I just hope you never have any problems with your guns and your kids or the like. I dont keep a weapon at home, seen enough to stay far away from such a poor decision imo.

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #122 on: March 10, 2001, 06:12:00 PM »
Oh.

I must learn to read non selectively    

Bet we have a lower child death to gun per capita though  

<tadaboom>


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Offline Cabby

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« Reply #123 on: March 10, 2001, 08:39:00 PM »
Quote:

" If you oppose the criminal with a firearm, you drastically endager yourself and your family."

Heh, but not nearly as much as that criminal who is no doubt pissing his pants.......What do YOU oppose a criminal with??  Your face or your ass???

If EVER i were to point a firearm at a living person, it would mean i intend to shoot that person dead.  Basic gun safety Rule #1.  Never point your gun at anything you don't want to kill.

BTW, which of you is going to take my Constitutionally permitted firearms away from me??  Oh, i see.  You want the GOVERNMENT to kick my front-door in and confiscate them so you will feel "safe".

How Fascist of you.....

Cabby
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Sandman_SBM

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« Reply #124 on: March 10, 2001, 10:10:00 PM »
 
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BTW, which of you is going to take my Constitutionally permitted firearms away from me??

I bet David Koresh and company felt much the same way before the government took his guns. BTW... the government has much bigger guns than you.

Offline Tac

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« Reply #125 on: March 10, 2001, 10:40:00 PM »
"Heh, but not nearly as much as that criminal who is no doubt pissing his pants"

Again, you are risking too much to protect your belongings. An alarm system with sirens and lights will scare away criminals without the use of firearms. Bu hey, if want to go ahead and risk your family, thats your problem. Just make sure your kids never EVER get your gun. Put a lock on it or something.

"the government has much bigger guns than you." hehe, that beats all those militia right-to-bear-arms lobbyists.    

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #126 on: March 10, 2001, 11:11:00 PM »
 
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Originally posted by Tac:
"Heh, but not nearly as much as that criminal who is no doubt pissing his pants"

Again, you are risking too much to protect your belongings. An alarm system with sirens and lights will scare away criminals without the use of firearms. Bu hey, if want to go ahead and risk your family, thats your problem. Just make sure your kids never EVER get your gun. Put a lock on it or something.

"the government has much bigger guns than you." hehe, that beats all those militia right-to-bear-arms lobbyists.    


TAC,

You are frankly dead wrong on this. Quite a few criminals know that unless a police cruiser just happens to be in the area and hears the alarm they have at least 2 to 5 minutes before a police officer can get there. It will take almost one full minute just to get the phone dialed into 911 and convince the operator you have a real emergency so they can transfer you to the police phone system to tell your story all over again to them and then wait to have a dispatcher START to call an officer who may or may not be within 5 minutes driving distance. If it is a rural or suburban setting where the Sheriff has jurisdiction it may be up to an hour response time.

Many jurisdictions do not allow direct dialing of a panic or burglar alarm into the police due to the frequent false alarms. The usual procedure is the alarm company gets the alarm, they then call the house to check on things. If there is no answer then they call the police who will roll on it as a single alarm. Not with lights and siren but as normal traffic, especially for an audible alarm.

Here is another take on this. If you are dealing with someone who has done any planning they know almost all alarms can be deactivated by pulling the main power switch on the house. These are usually located outside and accessible to the street.

If you think that a police officer is going to save you during a home invasion you are very mistaken. There is simply too much area to cover and too few officers. The police will get there and take the report AFTER the fact on much more than 90% of the cases.

If you think that I am wrong guess again. I was in that business. I responded to the calls and took the reports. I also started more than one homicide investigation by myself as there was no one available to help. It was real fun rolling on a strangling homicide from a sector adjacent to mine because there was no one to go on it in either sector except for me and I was an off duty traffic officer at the time. That young woman was killed in a motel room that had an occupied room next to and below it at 6:00 PM. The killer's pastor was the one that reported it after the killer drove to the church and confessed to the clergyman.

You don't want a gun to protect your family, that is your choice. You know your limitations better than anyone else. I know that you cannot depend on an alarm, cell phone, regular phone or nearby police officer to be able to hold off a home invader before any negative action has been taken against you or your family. You will be on your own until help can arrive provided you ever get the chance to call for help.

I was a street officer facing a man in a public park with a knife that just tried to stab me. I had a direct radio to backup. It took my backup over 2 minutes WITH lights and sirens to get to me in daylight, downtown 3 blocks from the main station. Know this, no cop tries harder to get there than on an officer needs help call.

I sincerely hope you never have this happen to you or yours.

Mav
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Offline Cabby

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« Reply #127 on: March 11, 2001, 12:03:00 AM »
Quote:

"I bet David Koresh and company felt much the same way before the government took his guns. BTW... the government has much bigger guns than you."

Did you get-off watching all those children burn alive?   Do you  fantasize Janet Reno in an SS uniform as well?

Yep, the government has MUCH bigger guns than i do.  But i have the Constitution and the Rule of Law on my side.  Despite the efforts of the corrupt scumbags that held power in the USA the for the last 8 years.

And i also have the right to vote which i exercise diligently to defeat Socialists, Leftists, Liberals, and any other Big Brother/Big Government-loving politicians whenever i can.

BTW, i think it was Patrick Henry who said: "Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death".  

My sentiments exactly.

Cabby

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Offline Dowding

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« Reply #128 on: March 11, 2001, 05:21:00 AM »
 
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Or has banning anything worked?

You're dead right. How about legalising hard drug taking, prostitution, paedophilia - the're all banned and still occur, so what's the point of criminalising them?

I'm sure the world would be a much better place if we could all do exactly what we want to anyone, anyplace and anywhere.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Dune

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« Reply #129 on: March 11, 2001, 05:23:00 AM »
I like to stay out of these things, but a squadie and I have been talking about it. Here is what I feel.

So I ask, is the problem that I want to own guns, or is it that so many people are being murdered and many of them by guns? (According to the FBI's 1998 Uniform Crime Reports, there were 16,914 murders in the US. 9,143 of these involved firearms )

If the real problem the latter, then it shouldn't matter if I want to own one gun or a bunch. So, the real question is, how do we reduce the number of murders (after all, why not try and reduce all of them, not just gun deaths)?

The two cities in the US with the highest per capita murder rates are Baltimore, MD at 47.1 per 100,000 and Washington DC at 49.7 per 100,000 (source: FBI's 1998 Uniform Crime Reports). Now I can also tell you that these cities have some of the most restrictive and constrictive gun control laws in the nation. (Detroit, New York and Philadelphia also rank up there)

This tells me that gun control regulations don't work. Or at least they haven't yet. Which means to me that more isn't going to help things. So where to from here? (I realize that we can argue over this, but you can't say there is no connection between these facts)

So let me offer two propositions:

ONE:
Today in Tennessee, a man went to court for a child-custody hearing against his estranged wife. Very few more highly charged emotional situations exist. Well, this man lost his hearing and custody of his kids. So he walked out to his car, got a shotgun and waited for his wife. When she and her friend walked out, he shot and killed both of them (not sure why he killed the friend, he must have felt she was also somehow responsible for what happened). Then he reloaded and shot their bodies until he was out of ammunition again. He got in his car and drove off.

Why do I mention this? To underline the fact that as long as people have been on this earth, people have made the decision to commit the ultimate act of violence. And for whatever reason, this man made that decision. From this I feel that two things can be assumed. First, he either thought he might or knew he was going to loose this hearing. This explains why he brought the gun to court. And from this I feel we can safely assume that he planned on killing his wife if he lost the hearing. More gun control would not have stopped this. It would not have mattered if he'd had to use a gun, knife, hammer, weedwacker or his Buick. He was going to kill this woman. In other words, there are situations and times when, even if we magically made all the world's guns disappeared, violent acts would happen.

How do I know this is a fact? Well, while we've read all about the teen in San Diego who, after feeling like he'd had enough, took a .22 pistol to school, shot 4 people and wounded several others. However, this has overshadowed the events here in Northern California of a week earlier. A teen who, feeling like he'd had enough, took his car and ran into a group of students at a bus stop. He killed four people and wounded several others. Some people are going to kill and there is nothing you can do about it. All the laws in the world wont stop it.

But, you say, sure there are going to be murders that more gun control can't stop. But what about all the killings in places like Washington and New York City? What to you propose we do about that? Well, here is what I propose,

SECOND:
Let me preface this by saying that in my time at law school I've worked for the US Attorney's Office prosecuting misdemeanors, including drug offenses. Right now I'm working for the San Francisco DA's office. And I'm helping prepare the prosecution of a murder case where the defendant was a habitual drug user and was one a three day meth-amphetimine binge when he beat his girlfriend's head in. My father is a Asst. County Attorney in Arizona and has worked with the SouthWestern Border Alliance which is a multi-departmental organization fighting drugs in Arizona, California and New Mexico. Of his two best friends, one is a DEA agent and the other is getting ready to retire from the US Customs service. Both of these men have spent their lives as local and government law enforcement officers. All of us have been, in one way or another, on the "front lines" of the drug war. And they all feel the same way I do.

The biggest cause of crime in the US and the biggest waste of our money is the "Drug War". The US spends over $30 billion every year on this rat hole. A Asst. Dist Attorney I work with said it best, "If they could show me that just 70% of the drugs on their way to our streets is being stopped, I'd say it was worth it. But they can't. If more than 6% of the drugs bound for the US are stopped, I'd be suprised."

Now what does this have to do with gun crimes here in the US (what it has to do with the amount of money used to fund para-military police forces and crime in third world countries is a whole other subject. See: Why the War on Drugs has Failed)? Simple.

Do you know that the US has seen per capita murder rates just as high as the 1980's and 90's? Yep, during the 1920's and early thirties. An average of 8.27 murders per 100,000 from 1920-34 and 9.48 per 100,000 for 1980-94 (National Center for Health Statistics, Vital Statistics, Revised, July 1999). Now what do these two periods of time have in common? A war on drugs. A war on booze and a war on cocaine. The fact that criminal elements had taken control of a major aspect of society and were willing to kill to keep it. One war the government was forced to admit has failed, one it is afraid to.

So here is my contention. End the War on Drugs and you will reduce violence as a whole and as a part of that, gun violence. I'm willing to bet cash money that gun violence would be reduced by 70%.

Look back at the amount of money the government wastes on the Drug War. $30 billion dollars every year. Hell, place drugs under the FDA and make sure they're quality. Right there you save money on bad trips ending up in the hospital (which cost the taxpayers). Then tax the bejeezus out of it the same way we do booze and cigarettes. Make it illegal for people under 21. Can you imagine the amount of money you'd make?

Think about what that money could be used for. Billions of dollars for schools for the improvised inner cities where most of this violence takes place. Better schools and education. Give these kids something else to do besides shoot each other over turf and drugs. Pay for rehab and prevention. Right now most of the prevention and rehab centers are paid for by taxpayers. And they are underfunded to the point of being almost ineffectual. Pay for daycare and healthcare. Pay for programs to teach skills. Give these kids some hope for the future. A place to belong besides the gang. Pay for more teachers and counselors and maybe things like Columbine and San Diego might be prevented.

You do that and you reduce the feeling these kids have that they must kill to prove themselves. Or to pay for their drugs. Or gain acceptance by their gang. It is the only way. And when you've done that, you've reduced the amount of violence period. Because, while school shootings get the headlines, the real problem is in the inner cities. Reduce the violence there and you'll see a huge reduction across the board.

I'll say this again, you legalize drugs (and control them) and you'll reduce violence, including gun violence, by 70%. And if we do that we wouldn't be having this conversation because it wouldn't matter if I had guns or not.

Let me leave you with one thought. Never in the history of mankind has a disease been cured by attacking the symptom. You may hide it. You may even help people forget it's there. But it will never be cured that way. Ever. It will continue to be a problem until it kills you.

You must attack the cause. Or else you waste your time

PS, this is a follow-up post to the one above:

 
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On June 6, 1998, a surprising letter was delivered to Kofi Annan, secretary general of the United Nations. "We believe," the letter declared, "that the global war on drugs is now causing more harm than drug abuse itself."
The letter was signed by statesmen, politicians, academics and other public figures. Former UN secretary general Javier Perez de Cuellar signed. So did George Shultz, the former American secretary of state, and Joycelyn Elders, the former American surgeon general. Nobel laureates such as Milton Friedman and Argentina's Adolfo Perez Esquivel added their
names. Four former presidents and seven former cabinet ministers from Latin American countries signed. And several eminent Canadians were among the signatories.

The drug policies the world has been following for decades are a destructive failure, they said. Trying to stamp out drug abuse by banning drugs has only created an illegal industry worth $400 billion U.S. "or roughly eight per cent of international trade." The letter continued: "This industry has empowered organized criminals, corrupted governments at all levels, eroded internal security, stimulated violence, and distorted both economic markets and moral values." And it concluded that these were the consequences "not of drug use per se, but of decades of failed and futile drug war policies."
- Source: United Nations Office for Drug Control and Crime Prevention, Economic and Social Consequences of Drug Abuse and Illicit Trafficking
The actual number spent by the Federal Government domestically to fight drugs is 19.2 billion (Source: Office of National Drug Control Policy)

Then you throw in $273,841,000 that was given to other countries by the State Department (http://www.state.gov/g/inl/rls/nrcrpt/2000/index.cfm?docid=887)

Plus $8 billion spent on drug offenders in prision (a whole generation of black Americans) - (Source: Bureau of Justice Statistics, Profile of Jail Inmates 1996) Now realize that this number is 5 years old, so that it may be up to $10 billion.

So that adds up to roughly $30 billion. Which is still a hell of a lot of money. Right now the Department of Education's budget is $38 billion (Source: US Dept of Education Budget Office)

So what you end up with is the US Government almost spends as much on the drug war as it does on education.


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Sandman_SBM

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« Reply #130 on: March 11, 2001, 09:45:00 AM »
 
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Originally posted by cabby:
But i have the Constitution and the Rule of Law on my side.

I've said it once... I'll repeat:

No federal court, including the U.S. Supreme Court, has ever overturned a gun control law on the grounds of the Second Amendment.

 
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Did you get-off watching all those children burn alive? Do you fantasize Janet Reno in an SS uniform as well?

Wow... another stretch and failed attempt to put words in my mouth. The point is, if the government wishes to focus its complete and undivided attention on you with all the military might available to the law enforcement agencies, YOU WILL LOSE. As for Janet Reno... I like her. She has done more in this country for women's rights than anyone I can think of in recent history.

BTW... excellent post, Dune. My sentiments exactly.

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sand
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[This message has been edited by Sandman_SBM (edited 03-11-2001).]