Author Topic: A monster is dead (Read 5898 times)

Udie · « **Reply #60 on:** June 12, 2001, 04:24:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding:
In terms of the number of capital punishments, the US has some interesting bedfellows. Notably China, Saudi Arabia and Iran.

There hasn't been a capital punishment sentence carried out in Europe for over 20 years. But which continent has the higher murder and rape rates (captial crimes)?

So is it a deterrent? Hardly. A tool for the doling out of Justice? No - it HAS killed innocent people. An act based on a fallible system is equally fallible.

All that is left revenge/vengeance - hardly anything but barbaric.

My feelings exactly Dowding. One interesting fact I just learned is that McVeigh wasn't executed for the deaths of 168 people. He was convicted and sentenced on 8 counts of killing Federal agents. Not 1 count for the civilians.

I'm sorry, yesterday was a sad day for me. I know he was a mass murderer and an evil person, but the fact remains that our federal government executed a life for the first time in almost 40 years and their doing another one in a couple of weeks. What are you going to do though? I'm against abortion and the death penalty, but 80% of my country want them so we got em. Life is preasious to me and I hate to see any life taken...

On another subject, I think France last used the guillatine in 1972...

U

ispar · « **Reply #61 on:** June 12, 2001, 11:19:00 PM »

Ok, hearing the NPR coverage that morning was enough to nauseate me...

Now this self-righteous, sanctimonious crap makes me want to hurl. "Justice has been served." Yeah, fine - McVeigh certainly didn't deserve much, he was a terrible person. Sure, justice has been served - at what cost? C'mon - a man is dead! That's not "vengeance," that's not "justice!" That's just upping the ante! No vengeance is worth a death. And no crime is worth vengeance beyond that which would prevent it from ever happening again. In McVeigh's case, locking him behind bars for life would have been more than sufficient.

I simply cannot accept that this is justified, and that capital punishment is the true solution. Dowding, you've already given the other half of my argument. Thank you.

Oh, AKHog? Should we have hanged him? Tell ya what... you volunteer to clean up the mess afterwards, and maybe someday you can try it out? I'm sure that you would enjoy it tremendously. You could get a free pass to watch! (C'mon, a public hanging - what a wonderful opportunity for federal fund-raising!) Alright, now please get away. I'm having trouble keeping my stomach down.

-ispar

Montezuma · « **Reply #62 on:** June 13, 2001, 12:27:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by 1776:
Another chapter of the Clinton administration has come to a close. Justice has been served.

Yes, it is all Clinton's fault!

Damn him for provoking all those peace loving right wing lunatics!

SOB · « **Reply #63 on:** June 13, 2001, 12:49:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by ispar:
Oh, AKHog? Should we have hanged him? Tell ya what... you volunteer to clean up the mess afterwards, and maybe someday you can try it out? I'm sure that you would enjoy it tremendously. You could get a free pass to watch! (C'mon, a public hanging - what a wonderful opportunity for federal fund-raising!) Alright, now please get away. I'm having trouble keeping my stomach down.
-ispar

That's great...in following with your line of thinking, are you offering to start picking up the tab for incarcerating scum for a lifetime?

SOB

Jammer · « **Reply #64 on:** June 13, 2001, 06:18:00 AM »

It beats my how anyone can argue that the state should be allowed to murder anyone, when the individual isn't.

To me this is the ultimate hypocracy(sp?).

"Deserves to die? Sure, many men alive deserves to die, and many dead men deserved to live. If you cannot give back life to those dead men you should not be so quick to pass death sentences." - to paraphrase Tolkien.

In war murder is legitimate, hell the government even give you a medal if you are a good killer. I hate to bring it up, but in Vietnam foreign soldiers masscred thousands of innocent civilian, which are still 'unrevenged'.

Again, hypocracy.

It's my firm belief that taking of human lives should never be sanctioned, by the state or individuals, in 'war' or in peace.

Killing and murdering within the own species is an almost unique thing to us human. It's very seldom seen in the rest of the nature.
This indicates the pathologic condition that is mankinds curse; bloodthirst and the tendency to integrate in social structures and uncritically accepting any of the decretes and norms imposed on the group.

Mankind combines the worst in individual egoism and collective, blind following of causes acclaimed by the social structure.

Toad · « **Reply #65 on:** June 13, 2001, 07:59:00 AM »

"Killing and murdering within the own species is an almost unique thing to us human. It's very seldom seen in the rest of the nature."

Not at all uncommon amongst the predators. But what does that have to do with McVeigh?

I'm glad he's gone, I'm happy the State has the power to eliminate such vermin.

OHIO · « **Reply #66 on:** June 13, 2001, 07:59:00 AM »

Jammer:

That was some very good points you made.

I was just wondering one thing before I start replying to your post, Do you know your flying a combat sim????

I'm in no way pinging on you. I just wanted to know how someone with your point of views that are so strong towards anti war and the killing of fellow humans could handle flying a game like this?

[ 06-13-2001: Message edited by: OHIO ]

Jammer · « **Reply #67 on:** June 13, 2001, 08:49:00 AM »

Hehe, I AM fascinated by war, I love war history, and history in general. At the same time, war and the suffering it brings on people disgusts me, and I'm pretty convinced I'd never pick up a gun and point it on another human. But that may be a bit hypocritical of me to say, since I don't know how I'd react in any given situation.

Would I silently watch someone gun down my family or friends (or anyone rellay)? Hell no, no one would.

Do I want to kill someone? Hell no, if I could I'd rather just disable anyone threatening me or my family or friends (or anyone else).

Point is, death penalty is worse than murder in some ways, since that's murder comitted by supposedly sane, calm and level people.

Murderers are generally intoxicated, mentally ill or by any sort affected mentally.

On revenge and hate - it's sweet, but at the same time bitter. Hate will eat you from inside and make you a smaller person. Revenge will maybe soothe sorrow and agony, but only forgiving can heal your soul fully.

I wish I could go deeper into this, but I don't have the time right now (spend too much time on BBS's), and also, my english isn't good enough to properly express my reasoning in the correct way.

I'm anti war, but still fascinated - wether I like it or not, war has changed the course of history more than anything else.

So I still play AH, CM:BO, WWIIOL, CS, FP, you name it.

For those interested in the 'human pathology of war' I can recommend a book called 'Janus', by Arthur Koestler, which is a summary of his works.

Jammer · « **Reply #68 on:** June 13, 2001, 09:01:00 AM »

Toad: It's really not common for predators to kill eachother. Fight over leadership, territory and mating, yes. But generally the weaker part in such fights will yeild and expose it's abdomen or throat to show inferiority, and the winner very rarely kill the loser in this case.

There are examples of male predators killing cubs of other males (lions, bears), but that is not what we see in the human behaviour.

But the real problem is that while intelligence and itellectual capacity grew rapidly during the human evolution, emotional control or social intelligence have not followed the same evolutional growth curve.

We are in that sense still emotionally and socially neandethals holding rifles or even nukes rather than wooden clubs or spears.

We can solve differential equations of the third grade, but we cannot control our rage when some cuts in the line in 3 o'clock rush hour traffic.

In other words - the 'control layer' in our brains hasn't been touched by nature by any significance ever since we still were clinging on to some tree looking down on the mammoths below.

[ 06-13-2001: Message edited by: Jammer ]

StSanta · « **Reply #69 on:** June 13, 2001, 09:21:00 AM »

That Tolkien quote is a favourite of mine

.

It's in the second book

.

OHIO · « **Reply #70 on:** June 13, 2001, 09:55:00 AM »

Kewel!

That's the answer I was looking for
Jammer, thank you! You had me scared there for a sec, I thought you were my 2nd grade English teacher!

Toad · « **Reply #71 on:** June 13, 2001, 10:14:00 AM »

"Killing and murdering within the own species is an almost unique thing to us human."

"There are examples of male predators killing cubs of other males (lions, bears), "

By your own admission then. There's other examples as well but this one should suffice to rebut the original statement.

[ 06-13-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]

Toad · « **Reply #72 on:** June 13, 2001, 10:17:00 AM »

"But the real problem is that while intelligence and itellectual capacity grew rapidly during the human evolution, emotional control or social intelligence have not followed the same evolutional growth curve.

We are in that sense still emotionally and socially neandethals holding rifles or even nukes rather than wooden clubs or spears.

We can solve differential equations of the third grade, but we cannot control our rage when some cuts in the line in 3 o'clock rush hour traffic."

So, how do you feel about Darwin?

Perhaps these are desirable traits for survival?

Jammer · « **Reply #73 on:** June 13, 2001, 10:21:00 AM »

Toad: If you like, yes.

My english really isn't good enough for discussing this in depth, and statements and such tend to be overly simplified on my side.

Sorry.

Maybe another way to express it would be: "Animals seldom kill another individual of its own species, with a few glaring exceptions. However the bloodthirst and violent behaviour of man is unpredenceted."

;p

Cheers.

ispar · « **Reply #74 on:** June 13, 2001, 05:13:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SOB:

That's great...in following with your line of thinking, are you offering to start picking up the tab for incarcerating scum for a lifetime?

SOB

Eh? This is about money? Because it's cheaper to kill someone than to keep them locked up? I was sickened before... that reasoning is below contempt. I have nothing against you SOB, but that argument is frankly one of worst out there.

FWIW, I'm sorry about the hanging comment to AKHog. I was angry at the time... executions as they are now are bad enough, but hanging is pretty messy. The public hanging comment really got my blood up.

S! Jammer! Very good way of putting it, you are just about directly in line with how I feel about this, even to the part about having such a fascination with war and military history.