Author Topic: So democracy rules in Iraq - a good job done.....  (Read 2610 times)

Offline NUKE

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So democracy rules in Iraq - a good job done.....
« Reply #75 on: May 20, 2005, 01:35:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Blarhhg.

I'm here -----

and you're here ----

Peace.



Well chit, you state that it was about oil, then can't even say why you feel that way? Hopefully you will at least think about how dumb that is.

Offline Steve

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« Reply #76 on: May 20, 2005, 01:40:34 AM »
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There's quite a long list of countries that have been interfered with so to speak since then end of WW2 all in the name of democracy and freedom.


Super power envy.  We are capable of looking after our best interests, so we do.  If your country was on the world stage and able to look after itself, no doubt it would too.  It's not, so you do the best you can.  You sit at your desk at home and whine about the US while we take care of ourselves along the way to helping others... wheeeeeeeeeee!   Take it!
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Offline Steve

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So democracy rules in Iraq - a good job done.....
« Reply #77 on: May 20, 2005, 01:42:38 AM »
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Do you care at all for the 10s of 1000s of iraqis that are dead and 100 000s of thousands injured and the 1000s or US service men and woman that have died in this invasion you love so much?


So, you think Hussein should still be in power then.  Well ok.  I just can't see leaving a genocidal murderer in power if there is something that can be done about it.  Here, we differ.

Of course, you completely fail to consider how many Hussein would have murdered, what terrorists he would have aided, had he been left in power.  Must be nice to be able to ignore that.
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Offline Steve

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« Reply #78 on: May 20, 2005, 01:45:37 AM »
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Be honest - we have never cared about the Iraqi people.


I disagree here.  I'm not saying that freeing the Iraqi people was the  driving force behind getting rid of Hussein.  I am  saying that is was one of the considerations.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #79 on: May 20, 2005, 01:48:26 AM »
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Originally posted by Nash
I have very little tolerance for revisionism.

The inspectors were in Iraq, inspecting. They went everywhere Powel told them to go (you know, those places he mentioned in his firey UN speech).

They didn't find squat.
...


The mission of UNMOVIC inspectors was not to find anyting but to verify Iraq's cooperaton and compliance with UN Resolutions regarding '91 cease fire issues.

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Resolution 687 in 1991, like the subsequent resolutions I shall refer to, required cooperation by Iraq, but such was often withheld or given grudgingly.

Unlike South Africa, which decided on its own to eliminate its nuclear weapons and welcomed the inspection as a means of creating confidence in its disarmament, Iraq appears not to have come to a genuine acceptance, not even today, of the disarmament which was demanded of it and which it needs to carry out to win the confidence of the world and to live in peace.
Hanz Blix Jan 2003
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Offline Steve

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So democracy rules in Iraq - a good job done.....
« Reply #80 on: May 20, 2005, 01:48:57 AM »
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We are here having an argument about the justification for a war. A war. And nobody's in agreement about the justification.


This is a cool topic in and of itself.  :)

Can you name one war the US was involved in that everyone agreed we should get in to?  My point is that there are always people here who disagree w/ the war du jour.  Even our war for independence was opposed by many.
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Offline NUKE

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So democracy rules in Iraq - a good job done.....
« Reply #81 on: May 20, 2005, 03:32:58 AM »
Nash, are you going to explain why you feel the Iraq war was about oil?

Offline NUKE

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So democracy rules in Iraq - a good job done.....
« Reply #82 on: May 20, 2005, 03:38:34 AM »
The funny thing is that I could probably give you a better argument that supports your position than you could ever think of.

But Iraq invasion was not about oil, and I welcome anyone to explain otherwise.

Offline Momus--

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« Reply #83 on: May 20, 2005, 04:45:31 AM »
Oil is the number one strategic material on the planet.

The entire modern history of the middle east has been dominated by oil.

It was oil that drew the British there at the start of the twentieth century and which led Lord Curzon to claim that the "Allied cause has floated to victory upon a wave of oil" in WW1

The UK fought the Ottoman Empire for control of Iraq - 1914-1918. Interestingly, Lord Curzon, the post war foreign minister, vehemently denied that oil had played any part in the decision to invade. He was later proved to have been lying.

From 1918-1930 the British were engaged in almost continous fighting to hold onto the Iraqi oil fields until the nation was granted a nominal level of independance in 1932.

Britain again siezed the Iraqi oil fields in 1941 to keep them out of German and US hands.

It was the USA's extraction treaty with Saudi Arabia in the immediate post-WW2 period that led State Department Policy Director George Kennan to state that the US had just aquired "the greatest material prize in world history".

It was oil concerns in the 1950s that led to the otherthrow of the Iranian government and installation of the pro-US and authoritarian regime of the Shah.

It was concerns over keeping middle-eastern oil away from the influence of the USSR that formed the basis the "Carter Doctrine" that led directly to the US intervention in the Afghan civil war in the 1970's and '80s.

It was concerns about vast oil wealth falling under the influence of the Iranian Mullahs that prompted the Reagan administration to support Iraq in attacking Iran in 1980.

It was to keep Kuwaiti oil wealth out of the hands of Iraq that Desert Storm was launched in 1991.

In testimony to the senate Armed Services Committee, April 13, 1999, General Anthony C. Zinni, commanding officer of the Central Command, affirmed the importance of the Persian Gulf region, with its huge oil reserves. It is a “vital interest” of “long standing,” he said, and the United States “must have free access to the region’s resources"

Practically the first action of the US government of occupation was to redenominate Iraqi oil sales from the euro to the dollar.

Recent history is replete with examples of democracies invading or otherwise interferring with the running of resource rich countries under bogus pretexts created to assuage public opinion. The US is no exception, in fact it provides some of the best examples.

Almost every post-war US president has followed a security doctrine of preserving, protecting and extending US oil interests in the persian gulf region. Now you tell me why I should suspend my disbelief and imagine that the Bush II regime is any different in the face of a hundred years of historical precedent.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2005, 04:57:03 AM by Momus-- »

Offline oboe

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« Reply #84 on: May 20, 2005, 06:44:48 AM »
Very nice Momus - though I wish you had footnoted some of the references so I could look at them.   Very interesting modern history of the ME.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2005, 06:50:32 AM by oboe »

storch

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So democracy rules in Iraq - a good job done.....
« Reply #85 on: May 20, 2005, 06:51:51 AM »
sparks is spot on and it should be obvious to even the most casual observer.  futhermore I don't believe there is anything wrong with the western power's policy to secure resources for ourselves.  recall that the 1991 gulf war was fought over oil.  the iraqis invaded kuwait in order to secure kuwaiti oil reserves and threaten saudi arabia.  the western power's hand was forced.  the current situation in the middle east is merely a continuation to that conflict.  the good news is that it isn't over with iraq, this is just the beginning and i don't expect it will be fully played out in my lifetime. i just read your excellent and accurate synopsis momus.

Offline Gixer

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So democracy rules in Iraq - a good job done.....
« Reply #86 on: May 20, 2005, 06:55:30 AM »
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Originally posted by NUKE
I'd like any one of you "it's about oil" simpletons to present  one shred of evidence or even a plausible reason for the US to invade Iraq just to get it's oil.


Ok this Simpleton first.  :)






...-Gixer

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #87 on: May 20, 2005, 07:48:48 AM »
Are you  saying we invaded so we could drive the price up by $20 a barrel?
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #88 on: May 20, 2005, 08:00:58 AM »
sparks you are undoubtably right that we did it to secure a friendly country in the region so that some progress in the region could be made toward stablizing it.

I think you are wrong tho that we never cared about the people... we cared about em like we cared about the sunmaumi victims... the average person never thinks about either till they are made aware of the plight of those people.   Once we know about it tho... it is another story.    I also don;t think that the sadmans arrogant attitude while he was torturing his people and attacking his neighbors and supporting terrorists helped him with the American people (I have no idea why more countries werent as appalled and pissed as we were).

I believe the sadman was working on nukes and WMD's in the past and I believe that he probly was up untill he fled the palace.  I believe he supported terrorists.  I believe he did not live up to the inspections and sanctions.  I believe that so long as he was in power the research and construction of WMD and the torturing and murder and tyranny would continue.

I also believe that the world is much better off without him and that what we are doing is a necessary step in human rights for the region.

lazs

Offline Eagler

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So democracy rules in Iraq - a good job done.....
« Reply #89 on: May 20, 2005, 08:03:42 AM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Are you  saying we invaded so we could drive the price up by $20 a barrel?


hehehe

as I have stated before:

Iraq
The right move - could be said the ONLY next move
at the right time
in the right place

history will bare this out, not a bunch of hand wringin internet libs

and yes, securing oil was ONE of the reasons as it had a direct bearing on America's economy and which direction it would head in the years to come.
how many of those whining about the US in Iraq wouldn't have minded if the DJ dropped another 8000 points? uh? I think more of the whiners would have like to have seen that happen than not for several reasons
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