Author Topic: Nose Bounce  (Read 1988 times)

Offline Schutt

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2005, 05:55:01 PM »
note that you want to change the pitch axis, in the screene you see the roll axis selected.

Offline DamnedRen

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2005, 10:24:50 PM »
Dead Band is used to kill spiking due to old or dirty potentiometers (pots) on the stick. While it's not a delay what it does is move the beginning point of the pot from dead center to a point further in the stick movement. It is very easy to check for spiking. Just move the stick around and look at the + in the blue boxes. If it looks like you having an 8.0 quake when you touch the stick then your pot is spiking. If it's going to spike you will notice it when you first move the stick. You can sometimes increase the dead band to a point past the spot on the pot that is causing the spikes and continue flying. Ok, if you have no spiking more the slider all  the way to bottom.

Damping delays the time it takes for you stick input to actually move the control surface. You normally need to adjust the damping up a little bit when your controls lock on you and you then see the message "don't move your stick so rapidly". The actual cause might be because yer flying along and "ping ping ping.". You yank the stick out of reflex which is way to fast and before you can ease off the pressure you get the message. The damping will delay the control movement allowing  you to ease off before before you get lock up. You only want to move the damping slider up enough to stop getting the message.

A simple way to get rid of nose bounce is to go back up and take a look at the slider pic posted above. That is the default setting.

Take the 0 (zero) slider on the left and move it all the way down. Then take the rest of the sliders and adjust them until it looks like the same, "staircase" going up from lower left to (90)  to right, as the default set.

Then take a look at the top left window "roll" click on the lil arrow in the window and goto "pitch" and do exactly the same thing.. If you have rudders do the same.

When you complete the changes go down "calibrate stick" and do that. Get up and fly and you should see a big difference.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2005, 10:32:23 PM by DamnedRen »

Offline bockko

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2005, 10:34:47 PM »
i had serious nose bounce with ms sticks; loved the ms stick itself, but replaced them with saitek x45 and 52; both saitek sticks were very smooth with no bounce.

Offline Motto

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2005, 06:18:51 PM »
Hi guys! Im new and I have been hanging out trying to learn a few things on here before I take my flying online. I have to thank you guys too for the help I read here has gotten me off the ground after a lot of frustration. Does everyone go through this?

I tried all of these suggestion and couldnt get anywhere with it. I finally sat down and hashed it out on paper the best I could and the process I came up with seems to work really nice. I think speed is pretty important in fixing the problem. If I set my stick up in the middle of my planes speed range then I get less bounce no matter what Im doing but if I make adjustments at really high speed or really slow then it dont work as good. I turned all of the 0-90 sliders to 100 and then turned damping and deadband off altoghther. I get in the air and up a few mistakes high and turn autopilot on. If it doesn't stay on I increase deadband until it does. Then I fly level until my plane is at what I think is the best turning speed and with autopilot off I slap the stick to the rear position and let go really fast. The nose bounces until dampening is set right. I move the sliders on dampening up until the the nose doesn't bounce at all. It still bounces when Im on the low edge of flying but I suppose thats to be expected. Not that I would know.

Offline DamnedRen

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« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2005, 07:07:04 PM »
Motto, it it helps when you finally come on line drop by the Traingin Arena (TA) and join me as an observer. You can decide how much nose bounce I have and compare it to what you''ve been able to achieve.

Offline Kweassa

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2005, 09:25:55 PM »
There is another factor at work here, a very common problem yet rarely perceived.
 
 Havoc, by any chance do you use any level of gunzoom while shooting at the target? Because, fine tuning plane movement during zoomed-in status will exaggerate the effects of stick movement.

 I for one, need glasses and don't have good eyesight. I use a 17" monitor and still can't really make out a silhouette of a plane when the distance marker is further than 400. Only inside 400yards, I can really see the whole of the target plane to aim at normal head/non-zoomed position. For many other reasons than just eyesight, a lot of people use zoomed in views to confirm the position of the enemy plane. Many of these people also prefer to shoot at the enemy plane while the view is zoomed in.

 However, they will soon realize that shooting at the general position of an enemy plane with an unclear view in the unzoomed position(where you can't really make out the silhouette fully), will more often than not offer better results than being zoomed in (and having a clr view of the plane).

 This is because, the ratio of nose movement between the zoomed in and unzoomed in views is different even with the same amount of pitch control.

 For instance, if a very slight stick input will change the aiming point by about 1cm in an unzoomed view, if you are zoomed in by double the same stick movement will change the aim by 2cm. So what typically happens, is that people zoom in, aim at the target, and then think to themselves "let's change the aim by 1cm and then I will have him"... except as you most slightly pull the stick the nose pitch will change by 2cm and your aim thrown off 1cm due to overcontrol.

 The distance is closing, you are getting anxious, you try to correct the aim.. and the more you try to correct it, the more the aim is thrown off and the nose seems to "bounce around".

 It's the exact same thing with rudder control(which is very important in aiming, too). Aileron control is uneffected by zoom, since there is no distortion in relative distances in the roll axis whether or not the view is zoomed in.


 To be able to fine control your pitch/yaw axis while zoomed in, you have to meddle with the stick settings so that the sliders correspond to very very small amount of pitch movement - except, if you do this, it may be easier to aim, but controlling your plane during normal flight becomes much more harder.


 Thus, the best way to avoid the "nose-bounce" in this case is;

1) if you have good eyesight, get used to shooting from unzoomed position

2) if you have bad eyesight, get in really close to the target(under 400, preferably when the distance marker shows '200')

3) or, practice positional estimation and defelction shooting, so you can pick a point where the enemy plane will pass, zoom in, and then shoot there... so you don't have to 'tracking' the target with the gunsight at all(which, by tracking him, will force you to fine tune aiming more and more)


 In my case, I've given up shooting over 400yd marker, so I get within the distance where I can see the enemy plane clearly without having to use zoom. I use zoom only when I am shooting at stationary targets, like enemy planes escaping by level flight(I'll zoom in fully in this case, and if my plane has nose mounted machine guns, will try to hurt him upto until 600~800. If my plane has wingarmament, I just give up), or when strafing GV with IL2 or Hurri2D, or when attacking ground targets.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2005, 09:30:29 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Nose Bounce
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2005, 09:34:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HavocTM
Two+ years and I still can't figure out how to get rid of that nasty nose bounce.

Is it my calibration or am I a spastic dweebtard?

Thanks for any help!



Try this stick.cfg and see if it helps you some.  It was made to address the nose bounce and to allow me to fly closer to the edge of the envelope.

Ack-Ack's stick scale


ack-ack
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Offline HavocTM

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2005, 08:13:48 AM »
Yes, that could be it.  Usually I follow the plane down to about 600 and then use zoom.

I will try not zooming and see if that helps.

Thanks!

Offline Ghosth

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2005, 08:24:16 AM »
Granted some sticks are a lot tougher to work with than others.

The thing to remember is that those stick scales are a visual representation of your stick pull.  IE if you could "slice" a pull from center to straight back into 10 slices.

Then were the slider is set for each "slice" determines how much input you have for that spot. Setting those sliders to the top across the board means 100% deflection.

So even if you just lightly pull back the stick, your going to get 100% up elevator.

Setting them all to the bottom would mean you have virtually no input at all.

So the secret is balance, between no control/too much control.

In my experience too much control too close to center = nose bounce. And yes Zoom does magnify the problem.

I also looked at AckAcks settings. From one quick look I can tell you 2 things.

1 He has a good joystick, not oversensitive, but responsive. CH gear?

2 he has a light hand on the stick.

His pitch settings start midway up and climb from there. Fine for an old hand with a light touch.

Not necessarily ideal for a new comer with yank & bank tendancys.

Visualise a rope or chain running from your hand (high right) to the ground (low left) It will naturally take a low curve, starting right on the ground. It will gradually climb for half the distance.
Then it will climb quickly in a smooth curve to the top right.

Now set your sliders to look like that curve.  You've got low input in the center for very fine control. But yank the stick back & you have 100% of possible input.

Once thats done for pitch, check deadband.  (wiggle stick around inside the springs, with pinky finger) If you see little spikes or curves in the blue window you should add a smidge of deadband, remember to check colors to see which axis needs it.

Roll I like to leave at default, but it can be tweaked to be a bit more agressive than pitch. Roll ussually won't stall you out, or ruin a shot like a jerky pitch will.


Last, if you have a twisty grip joystick, go to rudder. Set deadband up a bit in here. So that you have to twist a fair bit to kick in rudder. You'r not getting rudder input  in a turn when you don't mean to.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2005, 08:31:05 AM by Ghosth »

Offline HavocTM

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2005, 08:32:42 AM »
Well that settles it then.


The wife is gonna have to cough up some cash for a CH stick and that nifty new Throttle Quadrant they have with the switches for flaps, gear etc.


Now,  who wants to tell her?

Offline Max

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2005, 09:22:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by DamnedRen


Take the 0 (zero) slider on the left and move it all the way down. Then take the rest of the sliders and adjust them until it looks like the same, "staircase" going up from lower left to (90)  to right, as the default set.

Then take a look at the top left window "roll" click on the lil arrow in the window and goto "pitch" and do exactly the same thing.. If you have rudders do the same.

When you complete the changes go down "calibrate stick" and do that. Get up and fly and you should see a big difference.


Ren, isn't that the same as the "default" setting?

Max

Offline Max

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« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2005, 09:40:24 AM »
Ooopps...nevermind.  I get it O to 90

Offline XrightyX

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2005, 04:28:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Alky
I still have nose bounce and it's incredibly annoying when you're trying to give it just that little bit and the nose takes off :(
I'm sure my biggest problem is the Logitech 3D stick. ...

So I think the Saitek will be my choice. I haven't heard the Saitek guys whine too much about nose bounce :)


Replying late in the game here, BUT...

I went through 3 Logitechs.  They were crap.  I got a Saitek X45 and it is nice, no problems to speak of.  I think the biggest problem w/ the Logitechs is having the twist-stick rudder (which I understand is on the new Saitek  :( ).  Probably messes with all the sensors after a while with my patented "Death Grip" flying style.

Offline Alky

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2005, 04:35:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by XrightyX
Replying late in the game here, BUT...

I went through 3 Logitechs.  They were crap.  I got a Saitek X45 and it is nice, no problems to speak of.  


I just picked up the Saitek X45 with the throttle unit. It's really smooth and a lot less nose bounce. Now I need to figure out how to use all the buttons & switches, a bit overwhelming.  There's little to no info from Saitek about it :(
I wonder if there's a site somewhere that has that kind of info.
George "AlkyŽ" Fisher

Offline Max

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2005, 05:06:26 PM »
JOYSTICK RECOMMENDATIONS:

El Cheapo - Saitek Cyborg Evo USB $40

Top Shelf - CH USB Fighterstick, USB Throttle, USB Pro Peds   +/- $225

If you go with the Evo, buy it from a source that offers a replacement plan...chances are you'll need to replace it between 6 - 12 months.

btw...I scaled according to Ren's suggestions...works VERY well.

DmdMax