Author Topic: Nose Bounce  (Read 2015 times)

Offline XrightyX

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2005, 06:04:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Alky
I just picked up the Saitek X45 with the throttle unit. It's really smooth and a lot less nose bounce. Now I need to figure out how to use all the buttons & switches, a bit overwhelming.  There's little to no info from Saitek about it :(
I wonder if there's a site somewhere that has that kind of info.


Just program them through AH.  I tried the programing through the Saitek utility, but somewhere way back when, Skuzzy told me that none of the extra "hats" were actually hats, just buttons.  So I just programmed them in AH.  Much easier that way.

Offline Alky

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2005, 06:53:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by XrightyX
Skuzzy told me that none of the extra "hats" were actually hats, just buttons.  So I just programmed them in AH.  Much easier that way.

I've been trying to do that but the game doesn't recognize a lot of the stuff on the throttle unit or the 2nd hat on the stick. Am I missing something here?
Does someone have a stick map with those things defined that I could try?
George "AlkyŽ" Fisher

Offline Eagler

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2005, 07:01:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Alky
I just picked up the Saitek X45 with the throttle unit. It's really smooth and a lot less nose bounce. Now I need to figure out how to use all the buttons & switches, a bit overwhelming.  There's little to no info from Saitek about it :(
I wonder if there's a site somewhere that has that kind of info.
X45 AH profile

the above profile is setup for external rudder pedals, put is a start
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Offline DamnedRen

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2005, 09:28:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Alky
I've been trying to do that but the game doesn't recognize a lot of the stuff on the throttle unit or the 2nd hat on the stick. Am I missing something here?
Does someone have a stick map with those things defined that I could try?


There are many sets floating around but I'd suggest you learn to set any and all buttons yourself. If something happens to your computer you need to be able to big changes or fine adjustments.

SKuzzy is the sharp one when it comes programming. All buttons be it hat or plain buttons can be programmed. You just have to  sure you "set all inputs" then each and everysingle button is activate and can be programmed to whatever you want.

If you'd like aquick lesson on setting any button we can do it in 15 minutes.

Offline Alky

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2005, 01:45:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by DamnedRen
You just have to  sure you "set all inputs" then each and everysingle button is activate and can be programmed to whatever you want.

Ahhh... that must be the step I was missing :)
It seemed like I could only use the Saitek profile if I wanted the use of all the buttons & hats, I'd rather just set them in the game, I know how to do that :D
Thanx, gonna go do the "set all inputs" and try it :)
George "AlkyŽ" Fisher

Offline Max

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2005, 07:29:29 AM »
Alky to allow the 2nd hat (either on a stick or throttle) to be "seen" by AH...here's what ya do...
Goto the "Select Joystick" window of the joystick setup on the clipboard. With your cursor, highlight (darken) the input device from the center window which has the 2nd hat switch, then select Hat 2 from the left side window, and select hat switch from the right side window. The trick is to have all three dark at the same time.

Now click on "set input"> apply> OK.

Next open the stick mapping window. The 2nd hat should activate as you thumb around it. Use those activated areas as you would a button box to assign function.

Holler back if that doesn't work, or make sense. :)

DmdMax

Offline straffo

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2005, 07:39:53 AM »
To reduce nose bounce you can increase your dead zone but not the damping.

I had nose bounce when having to much damping but I've a setup pretty wierd all my sliders are at 100% with a full CH setup.

Offline Mace2004

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Saitek X45 controls
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2005, 01:06:06 PM »
Overall, I'd have to say that the X-45 has the best combination of capabilities and price and (after having disassembled the stick grip) it's sturdily made and has an excellent "buttons to dollar" ratio.  There are only two downsides I've found.  The centering mechanism needs to be regularly lubed and I've worn out the #1 hat switch (and the design doesn't allow replacement).  Because the switch doesn't work to check six I now just keep enemies in the windscreen.  :D

I see a bit of nose bounce with the stick and have played with the settings but have ended up using the default settings except reducing dead band as others have described.  The only adjustment that I haven't heard mentioned is the rudder control where I reduced the control authority (i.e., made the curve very shallow and flat for the first half and then ramping up to full authority) which makes it easier to make small corrections but still allows me to snap the plane around when I really need to.  The biggest change I made was the hardest and that was to relax the "death grip" a bit and use good technique.  A light touch works well with this stick.  Bounce is worsened by trying to "hold" the pipper precisely on target.  In additon to relaxing your grip change your targeting process a bit.  Don't try to hold the pipper in a single position by pulling and pushing on the stick. This is forcing the control system to pass back and forth over the stick center and dead zone as well as changing the direction of the force you're applying.  Pull to place the pipper ahead of the target (or slightly above a target when you're on his six), let it settle for a second, and then relax your pull slightly and allow the pipper to naturally fall to the target. Squeeze the trigger as the pipper passes over your intended aimpoint. This keeps forces in one direction (pull) and only requires changes to the degree of pull, not reversal.  It also helps if you have a bit of nose-down trim.  Most of the fighters in AH (when using CT) will nose-up at high speed.  It's very difficult to push the pipper down to a target so you really need to use trim (at least for high speed passes or running someone down).  Also, you should not use rudder to adjust the plain of motion (i.e., the path of the pipper) but should instead increase or decrease angle of bank to make sure the pipper goes through the target.  Using rudder to point the pipper is introducing yaw, sideslip and roll which complicates smooth tracking and produces unpredictable results (i.e., you're really just spraying bullets around, not aiming them).  Rudder for a quick snapshot is fine, just don't count on being very accurate using it.  This is real-world stuff. I don't know if this was intentionally modeled by HT but nose "bounce" is a very real issue with aircraft, this is not just a gaming issue.  The ability to "point" the aircraft (including the number/amplitude of overshoots ((bounce)), degree of damping, flight control system hysterisis, etc) is very much part of the development of aircraft and plays an essential role for any weapons platform as does the pilot's ability to overcome physical limits of aircraft design by tactics and techniques.

On the other issue that people have questioned, I've also spent quite a bit of time sorting out the stick map (mostly with success) but have had problems I can't solve regarding trim.  I first tried to map the trim to the throttle quadrant trim wheels.  AH recognizes the wheels, however, the wheels do not appear to provide full trim authority nor does the wheel position always correspond to the same trim position (i.e., centered wheel does not always equal centered trim).  I've also tried setting the second stick hat switch for trim (left=CT on/off, Fwd=Nose down, Aft=Nose up).  The problem I've seen here is that trim control is intermittent, i.e., sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.  Anyone have suggestions? Thanks.

Mace
Mace
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Offline Clifra Jones

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Re: Saitek X45 controls
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2005, 01:40:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004

On the other issue that people have questioned, I've also spent quite a bit of time sorting out the stick map (mostly with success) but have had problems I can't solve regarding trim.  I first tried to map the trim to the throttle quadrant trim wheels.  AH recognizes the wheels, however, the wheels do not appear to provide full trim authority nor does the wheel position always correspond to the same trim position (i.e., centered wheel does not always equal centered trim).  I've also tried setting the second stick hat switch for trim (left=CT on/off, Fwd=Nose down, Aft=Nose up).  The problem I've seen here is that trim control is intermittent, i.e., sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.  Anyone have suggestions? Thanks.

Mace


I have always used a HAT for trim. I used the forward hat on the throttle when I used an X45. My CH stick has 4way hats as well as 8way hats. I use a 4 way for trim.

(I program the pinky button as a shift button)
Up/Down = Elevetor
Left/Right=Alleron
[shift]Left/Right=Rudder
[shift] Up =CT toggle

One of the reasons you are probably seeing intermitent operation is you are using an 8 way hat. On some 8 ways you are never really sure if you are pressing left or left up/left down. Especially if there is no function on these controls. i,e, left-up does nothing. IIRC from when I had an X45 there was a way to program an 8 way to act as a 4 way. Otherwise you need to be precise in your movements of the hat.

On your broken hat switch, other than the fact that Saitek refuses to sell parts I don't see why it could not be replaced. I haven't opened the stick on my old X45 but it only seems logical to me.  Irrelavent though, the last time I tried to get them to sell me a spring for the rudder control a year and a half ago they flat out refused. So I fixed it with a paperclip.:aok

Offline Eagler

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Re: Saitek X45 controls
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2005, 02:30:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
... but have had problems I can't solve regarding trim.  I first tried to map the trim to the throttle quadrant trim wheels.  AH recognizes the wheels, however, the wheels do not appear to provide full trim authority nor does the wheel position always correspond to the same trim position (i.e., centered wheel does not always equal centered trim). .  Anyone have suggestions? Thanks.

Mace


you have to calibrate the rotors just like you do hte jstick and rudder inside AH when you use them as trim axis as they are an axis to AH and it needs to know their scale limits. Rotate the rotors thru entire range and center before applying calibration
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Offline Mace2004

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2005, 08:48:21 AM »
Clifra & Eagler, Thanks for the excellent comments.  I hadn't thought about it but the #2 stick hat switch is indeed an 8-way so I'm probably not being precise enough.  Also, I completely missed the calibration capability for the wheels, I'll give that a shot this evening.  

I'm of two minds regarding which (wheels or hat) is superior for trimming with this setup.  The hat is definently more natural (i.e., realistic) but using the wheels (even with the limitations I've had) let's me set a specific trim condition and then go immediately to those settings simply by switching CT off.  For example, if I know I'm going to B&Z, simply role the pitch and aileron trim to a positon giving slight nose-down, wings-level at 450 kts but leave CT on.  Search around for prey, dive, let CT help me level off on his six and as I close switch CT off and voila! no high-speed pitch-up and a dead bandit.  As I climb away and decelerate then CT comes back on.  Works well even though I've had problems with the settings so I'm sure I'll love it once I try your fixes.

Also, I did take the saitek apart and the hat switches are an integral part of the entire switch assembly/circuit board at the top of the switch.  Each hat is comprised of four microswitches embedded in plastic and the "hat" itself actives each of the four switches individually or two at a time (to give the left-forward, right-forward...etc).  Bottom line is I don't see any reasonable way to repair it...I'll probably pick up another X-45 this weekend.

Mace
Mace
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2005, 11:52:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ghosth


I also looked at AckAcks settings. From one quick look I can tell you 2 things.

1 He has a good joystick, not oversensitive, but responsive. CH gear?

2 he has a light hand on the stick.

His pitch settings start midway up and climb from there. Fine for an old hand with a light touch.

Not necessarily ideal for a new comer with yank & bank tendancys.

 



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Offline Ghosth

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2005, 05:57:53 AM »
Grin  :)

Offline BTW

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2005, 08:44:04 AM »
What do you think about using the trim axisis on the ch flight stick during flight? I use combat trim, but sometimes use the pich axis on the stick to keep the nose down. Would these axis wheels be good to use instead of combat trim?

Offline StrayDog

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2005, 12:51:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DMax
JOYSTICK RECOMMENDATIONS:

El Cheapo - Saitek Cyborg Evo USB $40

Top Shelf - CH USB Fighterstick, USB Throttle, USB Pro Peds   +/- $225

If you go with the Evo, buy it from a source that offers a replacement plan...chances are you'll need to replace it between 6 - 12 months.

btw...I scaled according to Ren's suggestions...works VERY well.

DmdMax


Slight change of subject:   If you are a Leftie, the Saitek Evo is the best answer for a stick, not the best on the market, but the best, leftie available.    The older EVO had better button placement that the newer ones.   CH used to have a good ambi/4 button stick, haven't seen them in years.  

Just invest the time to find the best setup for your stick and tyle.