Why have rules for Squad ops?

[Ghosth]

They never get enforced it seems to me.

Seriously the walkons every frame are getting worse and worse, yet I see very little being done.

Not trying to put down Sled, as a CM, from what I saw he had his hands pretty busy, and did a good job last night.

But 2 minutes to launch there were over 15 people with no squad affiliation trying to hook up. Most were not so obvious about it. But I have screen shots of "Ltown" who was blatant about "asking" for a squad.

Then of 68jabb telling him which channel to tune. All on the open channel. Squad concerned is the "Stompin 68th" btw.

You want the screen shots, be glad to send them to you. Just email me at ghosth@mcleodusa.net

As one of the creators of Squad ops I know this was NOT how it was supposed to be. This problem has been building for the last year.


(copied from squad ops rules)
2. Participation

- No walkons will be allowed on the day of the events, (frames). Any individual pilots wishing to participate must pre-register with squadrons or contact the squadrons ahead of time, not the minutes before the frame. (End quote)

Why bother if no one is going to try to enforce it, or if there is no penalty for breaking the rules.

I have personally seen this happen again & again over the last year. I have in the last year complained about this issue several times to my squad CO. But he tends to find himself in a precarious position. This time I took the time to take some screen shots. Nail down the facts, get it all down in black & white.  

So there it is, Consider this an official protest.

Thank you

[Sled]

I remember telling LT that he had to be part of a registered squad. I didn't catch the exchange between him and 68jabb.

My apologies, it just got by me.

[Ghosth]

Sled I used to do the job, I know exactly how hard it is to do. And how crazy it can get at times.

I wasn't critizing you at all sir.

My point was that this is getting more and more blatant. That it will continue to do so until it starts getting punished when someone points it out.

[Sled]

It's all good, I know you weren't criticizing me.

But, it was my responsibility, hence the apologies.

[Ghosth]

My problem sled is not with the CM running the event. No one can monitor all channels at all times and catch everything.

Whats really burning my boat is when someone is pointed out there is still nothing done about it. When a flagrant violation of the rules happens, complete with proof, and no one says anything.

You knowHitech has the ability to lock individual players out of arenas now.

All someone has to do is call Dale up, say we had a problem, need Ltown locked out of the SEA for a couple of months.

Let the 68th boys off with a slap on the wrist.

How long do you really thing it would take before the word gets out?

But I guess no one cares enough anymore.

[BlkKnit]

I dont think its that no one cares GhostH (and I wasn't gonna post in here, but no one else has but you and SLED, so...) Its just that so many walk on anymore, but the majority have it pre-arranged as they should but most first timers dont know how to find thier bunch when they get to the arena.  Last minute invites from the MA and such...I figure it happens alot.  I had often been about to boot someone only to learn they had been invited at the last minute.  Its also true that a few manage to get around this rule and there is nothing any CM can do about it.

Case in point, I had come to the SEA on friday an hour early to get the map downloaded.  While there LTOWN asked about the event and how to get in on it.  I told him to go to the MA and ask if a squad wanted a extra pilot, but NOT to do it in SEA as the event was gearing up.  I expect his situation was similar to the one I outlined above (could be wrong, I didn't see as I was on the other side).

BTW, fine work on friday SLED

[Sled]

BTW, fine work on Friday SLED

Thanks BK, I appreciate that. <>



Ghosth, I can tell you we are having a MAJOR discution on this subject, as we speak, on the CM Borad. Don't think that no one cares.  DD can fill you in ,if you contact him.

[Sled]

BTW Ghosth,

Where do you live ? I see it says "The Great White North"

I live in Alaska

[Easyscor]

Interesting discussion.

I remember the first time I stumbled into FSO after almost a year in AH.  I was sent packing immediately and told it was for squads only.  It seemed like some sort of elitist event to me and fair or not, my perception of the people in there running it wasn’t particularly good.  At the time, I didn’t even belong to a MA squad and when I did join one, they didn’t fly FSO so it was another 2 or 3 years before I finally went back in to fly with the 68th.

I understand, no one wants to be in the position of herding kittens on Friday nights but it can’t hurt to include the few new guys who occasionally show up if a squad is willing to take them on.  The squad can tell the walk-on to either join their FSO squad and fly on a regular basis, join another FSO squad, bring their own squad in or quit coming.  Only if the walk-on proves to be disruptive to the rules and intent of the event should they be run off or black balled.

This doesn’t change the requirement that they become a member of a FSO squad, it only allows a way for the initial connection to be made in a more welcoming way that provides a better impression of FSO then I received 2-1/2 years ago.  Eventually, they’ll probably bring their MA squad in and split off from their host squad replacing those who leave the game for one reason or another.

[Easyscor]

Btw, put yourself in the shoes of the MA squad CO or XO who’s never flown FSO but is interested in participating.  He’s not going to sign up his squad without checking it out himself and you can’t seriously want him to sign up with no experience, knowing what would happen if his squad didn’t show up.  Currently, strict adherence to the rule doesn’t provide any easy way for him to test it to see if his guys might be interested.  Oh it sounds easy, but unless you know some guys in one of the participating squads it won’t happen.  If someone has a spare slot for a walk-on and the squad CO is agreeable, he should be in, if not then he’ll have to wait till next week.

The 68th was singled out for an infraction of the rule but I think the 68th could be used as an example of what the rule should be.  The DOW is back in as a registered squad after the 68th provide somewhere for their guys to participate during a tough time, and JG44 has now become a registered squad after the 68th took them in also.  IMO the 68th has provide leadership here in expanding FSO and deserves a thank you.

I agree some of the rules need change.  How walk-ons are handled for one, and how early the orders are sent out so the squads can practice their rides is another.

[daddog]

I remember the first time I stumbled into FSO after almost a year in AH. I was sent packing immediately and told it was for squads only. It seemed like some sort of elitist event to me and fair or not, my perception of the people in there running it wasn’t particularly good.

Thanks Easyscor, that is not how I want players walking into Squad Ops to feel like. The fact that you felt that way then others will also. Frankly I want Setup CM’s to tell walk on players they are more than welcome, but they have to contact a squad ahead of time. Come back next Friday and fly.

Sled is right. There is a LONG heated thread in the CM forum about this and the views on how to handle walk on players are from one extreme to the other.

One idea tossed out was to allow them to gun for buffs. I don’t know if we will do this or not, but we can look at it.

Personally I am not a fan of allowing walk on players for Squad Ops. All our other events allow for walk on players so it does not concern me too much that Squad Ops does not, but it does concern me that some might have the “elitist” impression. That I don’t want.

[Ghosth]

EAsyscor, don't get me wrong, I'm part of the reason our squad ops is a easy to get into as it is.

I tried for 2 years to get into the Warbirds S3 events, and never was able to pull it off.

But the only reason our squad ops works as well as it does is that we keep the CM load to a minimum. That means people MUST know where to go, and what to do ahead of time.

Hence the requirement that people get their spots ahead of time so they can get orders, comm channels, etc. It keeps the CM's required to run the event to a bare minimum.

Last friday night was as bad as I've ever seen it for walkons who ended up flying. Also if you check, the 332nd flying Mongrels have hosted a very large # of people who ended up flyng the event.

Fri nights IS our squad night, its what we do. We all support it as much  as a we can.  Including showcasing it to potential squad CO's & XO's. We have had times when 1/3 to 1/2 of the CM corp was in our squadron.

Daddog & I worked long & hard to make sure squad ops did NOT turn into an elietist event. To make it so ANYONE could with a single simple email get into and fly in it. Is that really so difficult?

But that does not mean that rules can be flagrantly bent & broken forever.
If your going to have rules you have to enforce them now & again or they become worthless. Thats really ALL I'm asking for.

Blknit, there is a difference between knowing that your flying with XXX squad, and forgeting comm channel.

And dropping into the arena and saying
"Who needs me, I'd like to fly allied tonight?"

Yes it was THAT obvious, and its been building to this point for some time.

The walkons also very much add to the side inbalance problem. You know how frustrating it can be when there is supposed to be a 120-80 balance in your favor. But it ends up being 140 to 120 against, and you get gangraped.

No need to take my word for those numbers either, check with the CM's.

How many people would speed on the highways if the trooper pulled your Licsense for a year if you got caught?

How many people would speed on the highways if the trooper just pulled you over & said "you really shouldn't do that" and let you go on your way?

[Ghosth]

Sled "The great white north" has turned into the big green swamp.   Been raining here for a month now.

Fargo North Dakota is home, halfway between Minneapolis and Winnipeg.

BTW I'm NOT asking for change in how we handle walkons. IMO the CM's are doing a good job as I said above.

What I'm ASKING for is some action when there IS a problem. That is where the problem is. That is where the problem has been for the last year.  Until that is resolved this WILL get worse.

Don't change the rules so no one gets their fingers slapped.  When someone breaks the rules slap their fingers!

[doobs]

Originally posted by Easyscor
Interesting discussion.

I remember the first time I stumbled into FSO after almost a year in AH.  I was sent packing immediately and told it was for squads only.  It seemed like some sort of elitist event to me and fair or not, my perception of the people in there running it wasn’t particularly good.  At the time, I didn’t even belong to a MA squad and when I did join one, they didn’t fly FSO so it was another 2 or 3 years before I finally went back in to fly with the 68th

I had same experience my first stumble in FSO.  I had no clue what was going on, didn't follow BBS that close yet.


I had started to log in to AH and saw alot of players in the SEA,
figured I'd check it out. saw all kinds of chatter on text, when I finally asked what was goin on and what I could do.  I was basically told it was a squad only event and that I would have to leave the arena.

I left it at that figuring I'll never convince the squad to try something new that we never had done had no clue what it was about. Just we had to register as squad and have a commitment level.

I was forunate enough to happen to run into 68KO and 68falcon one day flying in the same area in the MA. After a couple of runs with the 68th and our group they told me about FSO. They invited me to fly with them and try it out. I did and the rest is history, got one squaddie after another to try it and they were hooked. I started to feel we were abusing the 68th slots in the FSO, so we took it on our own.  Now we got another squad interested and they going to fly with us to get a feel for it they telling me they 10 strong. Hopefully after a couple of FSO events they will go off on there own.

IMO there is no better event in AH than FSO, and the more that know and have a good first experience would be nothing but beneficial to FSO.  Otherwise  we might of been here 2 years earlier, or never if it weren't for the 68th. The FSO can be intimidating to the first timer, and imo word of mouth in the MA is the only driving source to FSO.

And I do agree, rules are for a reason and should be followed.
I think that a real new guy in the SEA who wants to try it out and has no clue be allowed to fly. But the guy that does it all the time be booted as he is blatingly breaking the rules

Just my observation, not a knock on anybody.
I know you guys do a ton of work and appreciate it
more than ya know. I'm sweatin bullets about have to plan my first frame as CO next week. but I'll try my best.

A big to all the CM's , daddog, Ghosth.
you guys make friday night, white knuckle night, takes me an hour after event to be able to straiten my fingers.

[Easyscor]

Originally posted by Ghosth
The walkons also very much add to the side inbalance problem. You know how frustrating it can be when there is supposed to be a 120-80 balance in your favor. But it ends up being 140 to 120 against, and you get gangraped.

I can agree with your whole post.  I'm taking a temporary break from AH for RL issues so I wasn't there Friday to see the numbers imbalance.

Number counts are an over riding issue to my statements above, however, typically, the Axis side is probably the side short on numbers and could have used the walk-ons. Normally, I'd send any walk-ons to the Axis (except early war) where chances are they won't do well with the ride anyway.  If they stay and fly, great, if not, they're not yet FSO material anyway.

Just how many walk-ons are we talking about this last FSO?