Author Topic: Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind  (Read 3139 times)

Offline Silat

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Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind
« Reply #105 on: June 08, 2005, 10:10:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
[B
You want good education?   twice as good do for a start?   allow vouchers and use the wasted money that goes to public schools to allow the parents to have some real choice in their childrens education... yeah... you need 9 in a classroom in liberal public schools... private schools do twice as good with classrooms 3-5 times as large.

lazs [/B]



Yes lets have school vouchers so the public schools can compete for money. What a joke that would be.
This is contradictory to your position. You want the public to pay for private schools for your children?
Well I want a public school system. I want every child in this country to get the same education from Georgia to Oregon for free. It is an investment Im willing to make for the future.
If you want to send your child to private school then use your own money laz. Do you actually believe that we dont need a top notch public school system?
Why dont we just give money to the schools like we do to failed weapons systems? Or how about we stop corporate welfare and fund the schools with that?
+Silat
"The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." — Maya Angelou
"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Offline Silat

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Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind
« Reply #106 on: June 08, 2005, 10:18:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
The top 40% of earners in the US pay 92% of all income tax.  How much more can you ask of them?



Hmmm since they have 90% of the money I think we should ask for more.
+Silat
"The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." — Maya Angelou
"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Offline Krusher

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« Reply #107 on: June 08, 2005, 10:36:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Silat
Hmmm since they have 90% of the money I think we should ask for more.



How much more?

When is enough enough?

What level of income makes you rich?

Offline Silat

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« Reply #108 on: June 08, 2005, 10:46:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusher
How much more?

When is enough enough?

What level of income makes you rich?



Well we were talking about :
Originally posted by Steve
The top 40% of earners in the US pay 92% of all income tax. How much more can you ask of them?
+Silat
"The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." — Maya Angelou
"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Offline lazs2

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Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind
« Reply #109 on: June 08, 2005, 10:49:05 AM »
silat... you make no sense.   If you believe that a top notch school system is essential to everyone in the country and that we all need to pay for it...  fine.  I will go along with you.

Where you go off on a tangent is where you say that government  education is the only effective means.... you then go and say that if Iwant toget good education for my children.... I should pay twice... once for the education they that my tax money is supposedly used for and then once again for an education that is private and useful.

I am saying that all I want is the money extorted from me and used to educate my kid and then let me spend it as I please... If public education were worth a damn.... Iwould smply use that money on it.

You are implying that without government protection public schools would fail because.... because what?  

Why wouldn't the people continue to use the great public school system... Truth is... the bloated and useless public schol system couldn't compete... or... better yet... the competion would shake things up and get the public schools to compete.

You also never replied to my saying that we have more than enough money in gas tax right now to repair and maintain at autobhn levels, every road in America.

You want to spend the money on socialism then don't whine for the rich to fix the roads when they fall apart.

On a smaller scale this, socialism, is like someone with a gambling habit or drug habit spending all their money and then saying that it is unfair that other people have more money and more "stuff" than they do... that it isn't "fair".

lazs

Offline Silat

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Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind
« Reply #110 on: June 08, 2005, 10:54:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
silat... you make no sense.   If you believe that a top notch school system is essential to everyone in the country and that we all need to pay for it...  fine.  I will go along with you.

Where you go off on a tangent is where you say that government  education is the only effective means.... you then go and say that if Iwant toget good education for my children.... I should pay twice... once for the education they that my tax money is supposedly used for and then once again for an education that is private and useful.

I am saying that all I want is the money extorted from me and used to educate my kid and then let me spend it as I please... If public education were worth a damn.... Iwould smply use that money on it.

You are implying that without government protection public schools would fail because.... because what?  

Why wouldn't the people continue to use the great public school system... Truth is... the bloated and useless public schol system couldn't compete... or... better yet... the competion would shake things up and get the public schools to compete.

You also never replied to my saying that we have more than enough money in gas tax right now to repair and maintain at autobhn levels, every road in America.

You want to spend the money on socialism then don't whine for the rich to fix the roads when they fall apart.

On a smaller scale this, socialism, is like someone with a gambling habit or drug habit spending all their money and then saying that it is unfair that other people have more money and more "stuff" than they do... that it isn't "fair".

lazs


We have been down this road. You want to pick and choose which taxes you pay? It is in your best interest to pay taxes to support the public school system and the roads. Its you who is flip flopping laz.

Im not whining nor am I advocating socialism.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 11:01:16 AM by Silat »
+Silat
"The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." — Maya Angelou
"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Offline Toad

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Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind
« Reply #111 on: June 08, 2005, 11:30:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Silat
We arent talking about what you or I give to charity.

We are talking about our (governments) responsibilities to its citizens.



What you're talking about is spending someone else's money. It's what compassionate liberals do best and there's no end to their desire to spend or their desire to spend money not their own.

;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Krusher

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Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind
« Reply #112 on: June 08, 2005, 01:09:28 PM »
The Rich & the Government, Friends Forever
Debunking the latest round of class warfare.


It is impossible that the Bush tax cuts of June 2003 contributed to relatively lower tax payments by the very richest Americans in 2002. But New York Times writer David Cay Johnston conveniently avoids this fact in his Sunday front-page article, “Richest Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind,” which used tax-payment data that ended in 2002 to extend the class-warfare argument. Is this just more garden-variety Bush-bashing from the newspaper of record?

I’d also like to know why Johnston never mentions the fact that the wealthiest Americans suffered the most in the stock market plunge and asset deflation of 2000-02. One reason the richest seemed to pay less in taxes during this period is that they were the hardest hit during the deflation.

Johnston singles out the top 145,000 taxpayers who comprise the top 0.1 percent of income distribution in 2002. Their average income was $3 million, two-and-a-half times the inflation-adjusted $1.2 million that the group reported in 1980. My gosh — how dare they be successful earners and investors?

Over that 22-year span, this group probably included the very same people who launched tens of thousands of new companies that hired roughly 40 million net new workers that completely revolutionized the U.S. economy through unbelievable breakthroughs in the realms of information technology, communications, finance, health care, and retailing.

Should we go out and shoot these 145,000 for their success?

These entrepreneurs use their God-given talents within the Reaganesque free-market framework that deregulated, slashed tax rates, and provided the first strong dose of economic incentives since the 1920s. A rising economic tide over the last 20 years has lifted living standards, productivity, and employment throughout America. Everyone got richer, with a full $39 trillion in new wealth created during this period. That’s why the unemployment rate has been averaging 5 percent over the past 10 years, with non-financial productivity running about 5 percent and inflation virtually nil.

Of course, the bulk of Bush’s 2003 tax cuts on dividends and capital gains will help people with the highest incomes, but they pay the most taxes in the first place. The tax cuts will also help the entire 100-million-strong investor class — about 50 percent of U.S. households. But when the new IRS income statistics for 2004 and 2005 are published, we will undoubtedly find that lower tax rates — particularly on investment — have again generated much higher tax collections for the so-called richest among us. Already, for the twelve months ending April 2005, non-withheld tax receipts (read capital gains and dividends) rose an astronomical 36 percent.

There’s nothing new here. Through 2001, a tiny one-tenth of 1 percent of U.S. taxpayers generated a hefty 16 percent of total tax collections. That’s brainpower plus initiative, aided and abetted by the incentive to keep more of what you earn and thus work with more intensity and purpose. Meanwhile the top 1 percent paid 34 percent of tax collections, the top 5 percent paid 53 percent, the top 10 percent paid 65 percent, the top 25 percent paid 83 percent, and the top 50 percent paid 96 percent. These “rich people” are government’s best friend.

This week in the Wall Street Journal, Gotz Aly, a professor of Holocaust research at the University of Frankfurt, talked about the “rotten achievement” of the German economy, where policymakers obsess over the “equalization of living standards.” Germans have an “equality sickness” that makes them dependent on the welfare state. Is that what David Cay Johnston has in mind for America?

Nations engaged in punishing the rich and leveling income and wealth through high taxes and resource redistribution have always failed. These were the goals of the socialist and communist regimes following WWII, in particular old Russia and its satellites. The size and scope of these failures, and the related deprivation of democracy and human rights, ultimately led to the downfall of communism and the rise of free-market capitalism, with its attendant privileges of free-election democracy and sweeping new human rights. This very transition is now occurring in the once darkest corners of the Middle East.

The economic failure of income- and wealth-leveling is more and more apparent today. The stagnant economies of socialist Old Europe are falling further and further behind the free-market capitalist models of the U.S. and Britain. Milton Friedman’s great 1962 book, Capitalism and Freedom, should be read by all inhabitants of Old Europe. He offered a way out. Twenty-odd years later, Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher put Friedman’s ideas into political and economic action. The startlingly positive results are being copied by India and China, if not inevitably by France, Germany, and Italy.

This is a thought for the ages … and for Mr. David Cay Johnston.

Larry Kudlow

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #113 on: June 08, 2005, 03:01:18 PM »
silat... not at all.  I am not "picking and choosing" where my taxes go... I am merely asking that if we all pay for schooling and it is say...10,000 per year per student then... people with school children should be given a voucher for that amount and they can spend it on a public school or an accredited private school.

As for the roads... no problem... I am not adverse to paying a fee at the gas pump per gallon to maintain roads but that money should be used only for the maintenance of roads... it is more than enough for that purpose.

You are acting like we don't have enough money for roads when what you mean is the general fund for all socialist programs does not have enough money..   the rich are paying more than their fair share for roads...and... there is more than enough money in road related fees to build and maintain roads...

You are not talking about the rich paying for roads... you are saying that you want the rich to put more money into the general fund.... this would do nothing for roads... the socialists would simply confiscate that money too and let the roads rot.

lazs

Offline Silat

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« Reply #114 on: June 08, 2005, 04:23:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
silat... not at all.  

lazs


Laz as long as we sheep keep allowing them to waste money it will continue to happen. But the corporations that would take over the job arent any better at managing our money. In fact I have even less faith in them to look out for my interests.


Maybe we arent understanding each other:)

I dont believe that the private sector can manage my interests any better than my government in some areas. And I prefer it stays in government hands. Roads being an example. Schools another. SS, medicare,military etc.
If you dont like SS then by all means take some of your money and invest it. But you still pay into SS and have that guaranteed payout.
If you dont like public schools then take your money and pay for private education. But you still must pay taxes that support the public system. It is in your best interest that the children are educated.
There are other areas but no need to bring them up now.:)

We obviously disagree on the school voucher issue:)

Ive read as much as I can stand about vouchers and while trying to keep an open mind cant quite get to the point that I support it. I will continue to be open to changing my mind on the subject.
By the way the studies dont show private schools to be better than public.

Rant:
What really gets me is that some on this board who advocate pure unfettered capitalism and belittle social programs are actually employed or have a spouse employed in industries that take vast amounts of corporate welfare. The airline industry for
instance.
Corporate welfare being OUR money given to private industry. Whether it be tax breaks or outright handouts.
These individuals keep ranting their talking points but at home its a different story altogether. They are living partially off the government teat but talking against it in here.
Its this hypocrisy on the board that really sets me off.
Dont get me wrong. I feel that the airline industry needs to succeed. But if these people are going to stick to their guns then they have to be consistent and not take the money ,not be union nor work for these WELFARE corporations.

You know there is a saying that really fits on this BB.

"Put your actions where your mouth is."

And Laz I do feel that I should pay more taxes than someone who is less fortunate than I. I am benefiting from the system a lot. Therefore I feel I should give back a bit more. It is in my best interests and in the best interests of my country.
I know we dont agree with this:)


Now after all that I feel we can disagree and still have a BBQ together.

;)
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 06:28:21 PM by Silat »
+Silat
"The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." — Maya Angelou
"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Offline Toad

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Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind
« Reply #115 on: June 08, 2005, 04:37:58 PM »
I believe you are referring to me?

If so, you are incorrect. On many levels. However, I'll just address the salient one.

I would prefer that the government stay entirely OUT of the airline business and let the fittest survive. The current policy is foolish.

There is extreme overcapacity right now, or so they tell us. The brainiacs in the corporate offices claim they cannot raise fares due to overcapacity while the load factors (% of seats filled per flight) are generally near record high levels.

Best thing for the industry would be to let the weak, incompetently managed carriers fail. That would eventually result in a business model that allowed proficient, efficient carriers to do quite nicely.

Had this model been allowed from the start of deregulation, the industry wouldn't be in the sad shape it is in right now.

However, individual airline employees don't get to ordain government policy.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Silat

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Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind
« Reply #116 on: June 08, 2005, 06:23:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
my wife told me today that the nation's safest drivers are in oregon and that my beloved Florida was rated 41.  I told her that it's because oregon is populated by hippies and liberal girly men.


Do I have to bring amway up again?:)
+Silat
"The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." — Maya Angelou
"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

storch

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Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind
« Reply #117 on: June 08, 2005, 06:56:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Silat
Do I have to bring amway up again?:)


and what? prove how silly you are in not being involved again?  it would only further prove my point. :aok

Offline Raider179

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Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind
« Reply #118 on: June 08, 2005, 07:18:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
silat... not at all.  I am not "picking and choosing" where my taxes go... I am merely asking that if we all pay for schooling and it is say...10,000 per year per student then... people with school children should be given a voucher for that amount and they can spend it on a public school or an accredited private school.

As for the roads... no problem... I am not adverse to paying a fee at the gas pump per gallon to maintain roads but that money should be used only for the maintenance of roads... it is more than enough for that purpose.

You are acting like we don't have enough money for roads when what you mean is the general fund for all socialist programs does not have enough money..   the rich are paying more than their fair share for roads...and... there is more than enough money in road related fees to build and maintain roads...

You are not talking about the rich paying for roads... you are saying that you want the rich to put more money into the general fund.... this would do nothing for roads... the socialists would simply confiscate that money too and let the roads rot.

lazs


Take the amount of money you paid in taxes and multiply it by the % of the budget (2.9%) which is for the Department of education and you will see you are getting a good deal.  

Its $580 dollars for 20k in taxes and thats for 1 student. Got more than 1 kid, start dividing it up.

Offline Flit

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Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind
« Reply #119 on: June 08, 2005, 09:13:51 PM »
Thanks Krusher,good read:)