Ding!!! Finally I got it!!

[TexMurphy]

One thing Ive failed to understand is how some pilots manage to reverse at me with me so tight on their six. Before Ive always needed about 2k to reverse on a enemy that is on my six and get a merge with him.

Ive seen great pilots like Greebo in his F6F do extreamly tight reverses on me and Ive failed to understand how he can do so tight manouvers.

Ive grasped the concept of combining vertical and horizontal movement in my manouvers but something was missing.

Yesterday it hit me.

3 axis not just 2.

Something Ive not been paying much attention to is "depth". Where is the exit point of my manouver compared to the entry point vertically, horizontally and depth wise.

If Im to reverse on a enemy that is on my six and the exit point is ahead of the entry point (in the direction of my original heading) I will buy my self time, if its behind the entry point I will need to complete the manouver faster.



compared to



Both manouvers are done very sloppy but its just to show my point.

Assuming the displacement in depth takes 3 seconds to fly for the enemy the first manouver will "appear" to take 8 sec and the immelman 21 sec. Which makes a huge difference in distance needed between your self and enemy to get the merge.

I know most of you guys propably know this but hey Im slow..

Tex

[Elyeh]

Tex..... Could you explain that a little more in depth?

I see the pics but not sure about enty point, exit point and all that your saying there.

I always wonder the same thing as you and maybe you can explain it so I understand.

Thanks

[WMLute]

he's talkin' about rolling the plane to change your planes vector i think.  2nd pick appears to be just an up/over immelman type move.  The 1st pick he "rolls" the plane, and achieves a reverse in much less time.  AND, he's 100% correct.  

look at the pick, and follow the planes twists, twisting your hand as you do it.  (airplanes on the end o' sticks works better than hands if avail.)

[Roscoroo]

at the top just as you roll over  hit the flaps (depending on plane) and you'll dive right onto them .

[TexMurphy]

Ok Ill try to explain.

Entry point

The point where you start your manouver. On all three axis.

Depth == Z axis == direction of heading, Horizontal == X axis == left right, Vertically == Y axis == altitude.

Exit point

The point where you exit your manouver. On all three axis.

For example a loop has the entry point and exit point roughly at the same spot. You end up where you start your manouver, right?

A Immelman usually has its exit point right above the entry point. Displacement on the Y axis.

A High YoYo has the exit point directly left or right of the entry point. Displacement on the X axis.

A Barrell roll has its exit point directly ahead of the entry point. Displacement on the Z axis.

Follow me so far?

In the case when you have a enemy at your six and you want to reverse so that you can merge on him you want to make a manouver that has its exit point at the same altitude as the entry point, actually slightly below.

Say that you immel over then you will have to dive inorder to be able to merge, right?

So in this case your reverse manouver will be immelman + dive. So since the exit point of the immel man is above the entry point and you dive after that the exit point of the full reverse manouver will be displaced towards the enemy. Meaning displaced back on the Z axis from your original heading. You see that well in picture 2.

This also means that you close the distance between your self and the enemy before your manouver is complete.

The manouver in the first picture is a barrell roll that I pull into a split s when Im at the top of the barrell.

Im down the Z axis along my original flight path through out more then 75% of the manouver. Its only when Im facing straight down in the Split S part that I stop moving in the direction of my original flight.

Compare it to the Immelman based reverse where Im only heading forward untill Im facing straight up, about 25% of the time.

For the enemy the manouver in the first picture will look like a very very tight high yoyo because depth perception is quite hard in the game. Seeing the forward movement is much harder then
the horizontal and/or vertical movement.

I hope this explains it a bit more.

Tex

[Schutt]

Ha, thank you. I always had the same problem your explanation is logical and will help me.

Basic is you turn the plane while still moving in the same direcion as he is... so seem not to move for him but still turn around.

The reversal is basically a loop with a half roll in it?

If you are on top and see that you can make it behind him you can put a complete roll in it and end up behind him in the same direction as before?

[TexMurphy]

Well not really but almost.

The manouver starts out as a barrellroll. In the picture its a clockwise barrellroll. So I start it with a slight turn left then pull up and back right, this way and with use of rudder and flaps I strech it vertically. You want to create enough room for your self to make a Split-S without blacking out or hitting the ground.

Once you are at the top of the barrell roll you pull directly back. Since your nose is pointing diagonally across the path of your movement when you are at the top of the barrell roll you have to adjust with some roll and a slight turn in the split S to get back "on track".

Yes ofcourse if he is comming in fast just the barrell roll it self can create a overshoot. But this manouver is if you have a enemy slowly closing on your six and is within 1.0-2.0k. Immelman and/or High YoYo take too much time and cant be completed at this range High YoYo can be made with enemy closer to you then Immel as the high yoyo has its entry point and exit point at the same position on the Z axis.

Tex

[Tillie38]

So where is your throttle through all this? I presume you back it off since you are trying to get the enemy to overshoot.

[JB73]

tex, there are ways to reverse even quicker i think, (never timed them), and they look like you never turn much form a distance.

try doing a severe low yoyo type thing, with 100% rudder applied in the direction of the turn, and "swing" the plane, nose under and back up

take your right hand, and put it eye level and level, pointing at your face....
using only wrist movement swing your hand down and make it point away from you.


thats kind of what im trying to explain. in a 190 or 109 even you can reverse really quickly. though you will have lost at least 50% of your E, you will be facing the enemy comming up on you.

[TexMurphy]

@Tillie38

Well that depends on if your trying to make the enemy overshoot or not. But if your trying for that then you dont really wana cut back underneath your self do you. If you wana make the overshoot then just make a really wide low speed barrell roll.

What Im trying to illustrate here is how to make a reverse so you can merge with him.

If you slow it down he will catch up with you so you actually want to keep your forward (direction of original heading) momentum going as much as you can.

But again to cut the manouver tight you have to throttle down. I dont do that till Im inverted. Then I cut the throttle so I dont smack the ground.

@JB73

There is the ever lasting dillema. E vs tight manouvers. Im pretty sure that what you describe is very doable in a Jug as well (my main ride). But in a jug I really dont wana give up all that E.

This manouver when flown in a F4U-1 (which I did when I filmed it) dropped my speed from 310 to about 250-260 and put me 100 feet below my entry point altitude. Which gives me plenty of E to Immelman after the merge to get in on his six.

Tex

[Tillie38]

I gotcha Tex.  You are speaking of a quick way around to face the oncoming con not really to make him overshoot.  

It's all coming together now.  

[TexMurphy]

Originally posted by Tillie38
I gotcha Tex.  You are speaking of a quick way around to face the oncoming con not really to make him overshoot.  

It's all coming together now.  

Yepp..

[StarOfAfrica2]

This is funny.  I was talking to someone in the MA the other night about Vector Rolls and as I tried to explain it I realized I hadnt actually done one in years.  Gotten lazy.  Then I realized I couldnt even remember the right combination to pull it off.  Tried it over and over, but I kept stalling out.  I forgot that speed was the key.  

I used to use it all the time to catch a con that would do a hard break turn when I was diving on them in a plane like  a FW or F4U that has a good roll rate at speed.  It lets you keep most of the speed from your dive, and still cut around his turn circle to get a chance at a 6 shot.  Looking at your first pic helped bring it back for me.  

Thanks!  

[Tillie38]

I use the JB73 method often when base defending.  If I get up without being vulched, I'm trying to gain speed and alt like mad.  If a con shows intrest in my six, I'll push the stick forward, full rudder, roll a tight low yo yo and come up under the approching con.   I exchange the alt for E and angle hoping the con will try to turn with me and provide a snapshot opportunity.

[Keiler]

Hmmm still confused, could anyone please make a ahf capture?

Reagrds!