Author Topic: Enough Is Enough  (Read 5033 times)

Offline Overlag

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3888
Enough Is Enough
« Reply #105 on: June 24, 2005, 07:38:52 AM »
fact is, the more that fly it, the more that feel the need to fly it.

IE me, i became fed up getting chased down/out performed in my 190a5/109f/g2 so now, half the time i up a la7 so at least i stand a chance in the la7 horde.

Its a runaway effect. The longer HT leaves it till they perk, the harder it will be on the players here. I say perk it before the new advert goes out, so all those two weekers that come in have to EARN the right to fly it, and all other top planes.
Adam Webb - 71st (Eagle) Squadron RAF Wing B
This post has a Krusty rating of 37

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Enough Is Enough
« Reply #106 on: June 24, 2005, 12:36:12 PM »
But there is a problem of balance between country sets. The problem with perking stuff is that it always meets a 'fairness' issue.

 Some people fly some planes for its performance, but some others truly like that plane and it's history. The 479th love their P-38s, the 13th TAS love their Mustangs, the JBs love their 190s and 109s.

 In all fairness, to the true fans of that certain aircraft, being limited in their favorite "ultimate aircraft" while others go scot-free to roam and become the scourge of MA is very unfair.

 That is exactly what happened to the Spit14 and the F4U-4. Right before the Spit14 was announced in AH, there was a sort of a 'panic attack' amongst the community that it'll become the new dweeb plane of the arena. The typical "outrun everything, outturn everything" plane.

 The Spit14, in all sense of fairness, has been treated unfairly. It never even got a chance to be evaluated in the arena.

 It started out as a 60+ perk plane right from the beginning, and for the RAF fans, their only 'high-performance' plane they have is the Typhoon, introduced in '41, upgraded to a '44 version. All the rest are Spitfires - granted, powerful planes they are, but the SpitV is a '41 plane('42 now that they got 16+), and the Spit9 we have is a '42 version.

 Look at the fans of other countries.

 The Bf109G-10 is essentially modelled to K-4 standards. One of the best accelerating/climbing planes in the MA, and THE best pure interceptor plane n the game - free.

 The P-51D, perhaps AH's most formiddable multipurpose plane with a large range of ord to choose from, great speed at both alt and deck - free.

 The Fw190D-9, also a very fast aircraft, 370mph+ at deck, exceptional performance at high speeds, powerful armament, and a plane that's even better suited for multiple engagements than the G-10 - free.

 And there are a lot of other choices in the planeset which destabilize and ruin arena balance in their own way. Despite the fact that they aren't high-performance as fighters, those planes are high-performance as MA aircraft in terms of ground attack. A good example in being the P-38L and the P-47D - which the existence of these planes as perk-free aircraft makes it almost foolhardy to take up the true 'jabo' planes of WW2.

 A-20s, IL-2s, Mossies.. heck, even the mid-sized bombers are worthless compared to the P-38L or the P-47D-40.

 ...
 
 Perking the La-7 alone will remedy SOME of the problems we feel, no doubt about that. But in the long run, like HT mentions, it's gonna hurt the game more.

 All the La-types will move over to either the next fastest planes or next easiest planes - namely, the La usage will be spread over to the 190D, P-51D, G-10... or the Spitfires. We'll see a heck of less Las, but then we'll see a LOT more of planes which can do what the La can do - namely, run away, play timid, do nothing but HOs, etc etc..

 
 The entire post-'44 section has to be perked. Not as high as to remove them from the game entirely, but just enough to make it so that their numbers in the air are roughly simular with the numbers of pre-'44 aircraft flying around in the MA at the same time.


 If we meet 10 enemy planes at a given sortie, and 8 of them are '44 planes and 2 of them being 'vets' who prefer mid-war planes -> it must be made so that 6~7 of them are '43 planes, and 3~4 of them are post-'44.

 In other words, perking aircraft should not be aimed at removing a certain plane from the arena.

 Rather, it must be done in order to increase the range of 'MA competitiveness' to a longer span of timeline. In an arena dominated by '44/'45 planes, all the rest of the planes are effectively obsolete.


 ....

 In other words, I want to see an arena  where La-5FNs are as many as the La-7s, P-51Bs are as many as the P-51Ds, P-38G/Js are as many as the P-38Ls, and Fw190A-8s are as common as Fw190D-9s.. etc.

 People currently only fly the "best" of the version/variants. This is the real problem in the MA. These "best" of the versions, as long as they are free, are the ones that have the potential to be "next in line" as HT mentions.

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Enough Is Enough
« Reply #107 on: June 24, 2005, 12:56:48 PM »
Sorry long post. I always get carried away.

 Simply put,

 spread out the usages of variants by introducing perks to the 'best version'.

 For example:

Quote
* Fw190 usage ratio in the MA

 D-9: 55% (3.33)
 A-8: 25% (1.54)
 A-5: 20% (1.16)


* Bf109 usage ratio in the MA

 G-10: 60% (4.12)
 G-6  : 12% (0.80)
 G-2  : 7% (0.49)
 F-4  : 19% (1.27)
 E-4  : 2% (0.13)



 I want to slap 3~5 perks on the Fw190D-9 and the Bf109G-10, so that these figures can be changed to;

Quote
* Fw190 usage ratio in the MA

 D-9: 30%
 A-8: 35%
 A-5: 25%


* Bf109 usage ratio in the MA

 G-10: 25%
 G-6  : 30%
 G-2  : 25%
 F-4  : 15%
 E-4  : 5%


 .. and same thing with all planes. Late war versions coexisting with earlier the 'next best' versions in simular numbers. So, if you take up a Fw190A-5, half of the Las you meet are La-5Fns, half of the 109s are G-2s or G-6s, half of the P-51s are P-51Bs, and etc etc..

 Cut down on the numbers of the 'best versions', make them coexist with previous versions in comparable numbers - and immediately, the fight is a whole lot better.

Offline Loddar

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 204
Enough Is Enough
« Reply #108 on: June 24, 2005, 12:58:02 PM »
Kweassa, that's the same suggest i asked
month before to limit uber-plane use.

Quote
Plane Standart use
 
My suggest for new planes and planes in use.
1. Bring in more mid war (1942-1943)  equipment and make them as standart use
2. Early war (1939 - 1941) equipment is for balance side strength and field use,
3. Perk all late war(1944 - 1945) equipment with suitable perk points


And that is what the community answered
me

Quote
So, you'd like to limit everyone's choices to the era and planes you prefer. An outstanding idea, really. And an original one as well. Should we all get a permission slip to fly as well? And while we're at it, why not regulations on the number of planes and how high they can fly?

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Enough Is Enough
« Reply #109 on: June 24, 2005, 01:07:15 PM »
Would you like to become a martyr with me? :D

Offline Overlag

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3888
Enough Is Enough
« Reply #110 on: June 24, 2005, 01:16:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Sorry long post. I always get carried away.

 Simply put,

 spread out the usages of variants by introducing perks to the 'best version'.

 For example:




 I want to slap 3~5 perks on the Fw190D-9 and the Bf109G-10, so that these figures can be changed to;



 .. and same thing with all planes. Late war versions coexisting with earlier the 'next best' versions in simular numbers. So, if you take up a Fw190A-5, half of the Las you meet are La-5Fns, half of the 109s are G-2s or G-6s, half of the P-51s are P-51Bs, and etc etc..

 Cut down on the numbers of the 'best versions', make them coexist with previous versions in comparable numbers - and immediately, the fight is a whole lot better.



 
EXACTLY WHAT I WANT TO SEE
Adam Webb - 71st (Eagle) Squadron RAF Wing B
This post has a Krusty rating of 37

Offline Loddar

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 204
Enough Is Enough
« Reply #111 on: June 24, 2005, 01:28:52 PM »
When it must be ... :D

Because i like the game and i am not proud of the tendency to become a shooter game in the moment

i think HT don't realized that so far.

Offline Soda

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1543
      • http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/models.htm
Enough Is Enough
« Reply #112 on: June 24, 2005, 05:23:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Sorry long post. I always get carried away.

 Simply put,

 spread out the usages of variants by introducing perks to the 'best version'.

 


A crazy idea, maybe not for the MA but it would be interesting to see it in action:

Why not just have a free-market-economy based on % of sorties.  Set a target use % and everytime someone presses FLY they effectively vote on whether the aircraft is worth the cost.  Less Use = Less Cost, More Use = More Cost.  Some that are under target use % aircraft could get big perk bonuses using the inverse of the cost scale. Good aircraft that are difficult to use would probably remain cheap, amybe an enticement to give them a try.  Some currently perked aircraft that players feel are over-priced compared to "Free" ones would price out at a point the community determines based on if people feel they deserve the cost.

Not saying there wouldn't be some hardships, the late war uber-rides would likely always carry a cost.  That said, most have earlier war alternatives that right now see almost no attention.  Just look at the 109G10 vs. the 109G2 and G6 as examples from HT's stats, no reason those alternatives are so un-used when really they offer different mixes of the same abilities as the G10 (G2 almost same performance, G6 same firepower).  It wouldn't just concentrate everyone in the "next-best" ride since that would just influence the cost over time.  People would find "sleeper" aircraft that were cheap or pay the price to always fly the best (and eventually run out of points).  We are talking pretty minor perks too, make it get steep for harsh over-use (maybe 20 points) but mild (1-2 points) for something just a "bit" better.  Nobody is going to care about a couple of perk points but might leave the 20 point La7 in the hanger for a free La5FN.

Don't know, just a thought...

-Soda

Offline Loddar

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 204
Enough Is Enough
« Reply #113 on: June 26, 2005, 02:15:16 AM »
BTW N1K is a 1944er too ;)

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
Enough Is Enough
« Reply #114 on: June 26, 2005, 02:39:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Loddar
BTW N1K is a 1944er too ;)


Big difference -
It doesnt accelerate like a Ferrari off the deck.
Nowhere near as fast.

The problem isn't that it's good or great in 1 category, as has been pointed out is excels in all categories. A point proved by having an ENY value equal to a 262.

I'll never work out why HT perks or doesn't perk planes, looking at our current situation NOTHING makes sense.
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline Overlag

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3888
Enough Is Enough
« Reply #115 on: June 26, 2005, 05:23:00 AM »
the perk system is a good idea, IF they used it
Adam Webb - 71st (Eagle) Squadron RAF Wing B
This post has a Krusty rating of 37

Offline dedalos

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8052
Enough Is Enough
« Reply #116 on: June 27, 2005, 09:03:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Soda
A crazy idea, maybe not for the MA but it would be interesting to see it in action:

Why not just have a free-market-economy based on % of sorties.  Set a target use % and everytime someone presses FLY they effectively vote on whether the aircraft is worth the cost. . . . .. .


So, you want to see the Spitfires gone also?  :lol

Sounds like a good idea though.  Beter than perking planes based on who is crying.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline SirLoin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5708
Enough Is Enough
« Reply #117 on: June 27, 2005, 01:02:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Loddar
Somebody asked the real newbie
question ever "What plane do i use
first in this game ?"

Many tell Spit V or IX. Why ? Nobody
says La7. I wonder about. it ist fast, has the
gameruler 20mm and maneuver
fantastic. La7 is the newbie plane of the game.

:rolleyes:


Yeah but the cannons are hard to hit with..could put off newbies..Spit's Hispanos a newbies best friend.
**JOKER'S JOKERS**

Offline Soda

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1543
      • http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/models.htm
Enough Is Enough
« Reply #118 on: June 27, 2005, 03:16:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
So, you want to see the Spitfires gone also?  :lol

Sounds like a good idea though.  Beter than perking planes based on who is crying.


Exactly.  Don't make HTC set the number, let the number set itself.  If people think it's worth the cost they will pay it, if not they won't. Make it cheap, just enough to influence long-term decisions but not enough to make people worry about losing points and getting placed in something "inferior".  Inferior right now is NOT-IN-A La7/P-51D/190D9/Typhoon/SpitV.  Inferior in a stepped model might be the difference between a 109F4, G2, G6 and G10..each a smaller step.

This way I think the MA would be a less dangerous place for new players and likely lead to more knife-fights.  Less firepower, less speed, less energy potential, less ordnance, an aircraft that displayed one or two of these abilities might be considered decent vs. now where if you don't basically have them all then you are in an inferior ride.  It would certainly slow the AH arms-race we have now.  As it stands if HTC doesn't add uber-aircraft then they typically become hanger-queens. Even if they add something "Better" doesn't it just attract all the attention and push everything else down a bit, not actually spread anything out that much.

As for the Spitfires, well, I'm sure the Spit 1 would remain free :)  Otherwise, we have 3 Spits in the top 10 aircraft right now, technically they are higher-total than the La7 in total sorties.  To complicate it, we have essentially 3 similar performing Spitfires with the Spit V at +16lbs.  That's still a lot of sorties to generate though before they got costly in my concept as each would have to hit the threshold % individually.  Given the addition of the Spit XIV as an La7 class perk and you'd have 4 models.  If the Spit V was lowered back to +12lbs you'd probably see use drop off there and it would become free, or essentially free (1-2 points).

Offline ALF

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1208
      • http://www.mikethinks.com
Enough Is Enough
« Reply #119 on: June 27, 2005, 03:47:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Loddar
Somebody asked the real newbie
question ever "What plane do i use
first in this game ?"

Many tell Spit V or IX. Why ? Nobody
says La7. I wonder about. it ist fast, has the
gameruler 20mm and maneuver
fantastic. La7 is the newbie plane of the game.

:rolleyes:


Just when did the La7 become manueverable?  Its 'OK' but its not a big T&B plane.  heck the p51 eats its lunch.  The thing you have to remember about the La7 is to start manuevering before its within 500 yards, many people get killed by a high aspect snapshot doing silly flat turns.


Besides, its been said a bizillion times before(that a lot), if you perk the LA7, within a month "PERK THE XXXXX" threads will apear as the Spit or Niki become more popular.......anyone remember the perk the Niki threads.....notice how they went away, and everyone learned how to beat the Niki......the UFO that it is:lol