Enough Is Enough

[Spongebob]

Soda, I get the impression you had this idea in mind and working the kinks out well before this thread started. I have to agree with your free market solution (that's just beautiful...the American way)and of course highlight the following:

 

The real thing is, does HTC even think there is a problem and or feel any change would better their business?

This of course being a free market solution in itself.

FOR DISCUSSIONS SAKE, let me throw something else out that's somewhat related - Would the game attract more players if it had more of a typical WWII flavor regarding the models of planes that are flown. We have an N1K2-J, for example, that absolutely should be modelled IMHO yet in our world it is one of the dominant planes numbers wise. In the war that produced this great plane it was only available late in the war and in *limited numbers (relatively speaking).  specifically 428 units. Note that the N1K1-J totalled 1007 examples earlier in the war but that model was arguably a lesser plane (by a small margin) and certainly had more teething problems so to speak. The are plenty of late war beasts with similar stories and I believe the F4U1-C production was in the hundreds, of course that beast got the perk penalty and rightfully so. Don't get me wrong here, I understand that you can't just pick a day on the timeline of WWII and say that the types and percentage of models flown on that day is what is "right". It has been stated that we have a late war arena, but how late is late and is that time optimum for attracting the maximum player base? Conversely, you cant attempt to manipulate the numbers on production alone. The Pee-40 numbered in the tens of thousands and nobody wants to fly that "ballerina" a representative amount of time (well no sane person). Is it feasible to perk a plane for two reasons - dominance in the arena AND because it just didn't get produced in large quantities? (see the Ta152 possibly and the C-Hog on both accounts) How about if it was a really late war entry or saw little combat? I think SOME guys would pay the price, if it isn't prohibitive, and not ***** too much because they understand the reasoning behind it.

But hey in the real deal Spits didn't fight Mustangs either...

Magoo

B]*60 before 1944 from the Naruo plant and only 294 subsequently (from that plant).

44 from the Hieji plant beginning March, 1945.

 Actual production by all manufacturers up to the end of the war totalled only 428 machines.[/B]

My source on this info is from a marvelous little handbook titled -  War Planes of the Second World War, Fighters, Volume Three, by William Green (1961)

I looked at the price tag on the inside cover from when I purchased it as a young lad (navy brat and a fixture at the base model shop in New London) - NAVY EXCHANGE N. S. B./ N. L.   $2.50 (wow, if only I could find volumes 1-4 at those prices today!)

[Soda]

Originally posted by Spongebob
FOR DISCUSSIONS SAKE, let me throw something else out that's somewhat related - Would the game attract more players ...

Sponge, people have discussed ways to "limit" use of a plane but I don't think there is a system that would suit the MA.  I think the ToD will probably appeal to that crowd much more as I think it'll incorporate a lot of those desires (based on what I've heard about it).  So many tough questions to answer otherwise like who decides who gets to fly what and how to you control when the get to use it?  No answer for that.  People have talked sortie limiters, rolling-planesets, etc... I don't think HT likes any of them (they all tend to have weaknesses).

HT just wants lots of people flying because that maximizes peoples enjoyment. More aircraft in the air = more targets, so anything that limits that while people wait in line to take up X ride is pointless.  Also, if there were a limit then they'd be less likely to commit it to a real fight and potentially lose it (and thus probably wait to take another).  Not good.

My idea will probably die with this thread but it's pretty simple.  It doesn't favor a high/low hour player, nor any country, etc.  It has to help diversity a bit as it's based on use percentage UNLESS people save up all their perks for only 1 specific aircraft.  Also allows much better potential for introduction of aircraft not near the top end that may be used if they are reasonably competitive.  It does probably impact a lot of the player-base though, all the popular rides are going to end up perks and some of the second tier rides will pick up popularity and also end up in the same situation (albiet less costly).  Most of those top rides are there because they are best suited to the game, not by service date, etc, but that said it'll mean a lot of people will be searching for a "new" ride because their primary one is now not free all the time.

-Soda

[Magoo]

Thanks for the comments Soda.

Also, if there were a limit then they'd be less likely to commit it to a real fight and potentially lose it (and thus probably wait to take another). Not good.

Of course that is what happens currently with the perk rides, but if that's a bad thing then why even add perk planes to the game?

Let's run with your ideas "for the sake of conversation" and offer a solution for this particular problem - If you earn the right to fly a plane then you must also earn the right to KEEP the plane. Use it or lose it. Put a cap on perks so you can't pile them up forever. If you don't use them after being logged on for X amount of time they start decrimenting. But to the point, I can't think of a way to accurately determine if a guy is truly commiting to battle, otherwise I'd subtract points for not doing so.

So many tough questions to answer otherwise like who decides who gets to fly what and how to you control when the get to use it? No answer for that. People have talked sortie limiters, rolling-planesets, etc... I don't think HT likes any of them (they all tend to have weaknesses).

The very fact that the average player (in the MA) can't survive in anything but a late war monster is in itself limiting your choices and deciding who flys what.
How about just giving everyone 2 free sorties in all the perk planes each camp (in your system I mean)?

There is more than one way to skin a cat. I think that several of the ideas offered in these boards could be just as good at attracting the maximum amount of customers. You simply go with an idea and commit to tweaking it and make it work. Of course that IS what HT is doing with the current setup. Certainly from HT's perspective there is a great amount of risk in reconfiguring the way the MA is ran, no matter how fond you are of an idea.

Magoo

[Shane]

Originally posted by Magoo
Make choosing an La7 a painful choice.
Magoo

choosing *my* la7 is usually a painful choice.

[Magoo]

Not lately Shane. You must actually be in the arena to dole out the pain...

I haven't seen you in game in quite some time.  Sounds more like empty threats to me

Magoo

[REP0MAN]

As somewhat of a noob I wanted to chime in.

I am three weeks out of free trial. The reason I came is because I love WWII stuff. Planes mostly as I myself fly. I also love manning 5mm CV guns and Panzers.

I like the La7 and the La5 for all the reasons you guys hate it. But I usually get my *** handed to me because I am not that good. Sure, I may turn and run if I get damaged or pilot wound but I do love to stay and fight. I will agree that others HO and run. I get it all the time. Its part of the game. I also get HO and run by alot of other planes. I think last night the majority of fighters I saw were 190, 109 and spit. But I dont care. If I win, yay. If I die, dang. Its a game. Its fun.

My point being, as a two week'er, I would not have had any fun nor luck gaining kills or being much in the fight with all early war aircraft or 'left-over free planes'. I came for the P-51D, P-38L and the Spit because of my interests in the history. But what I found when I got here is the f-4's, N1K's, BF-110's, 109's, tiffys and yes, the La's. It got me back in the history books looking at the other varieties that WWII had to offer. I even have a thing for flying mossies as a fighter. (Thanks Tex)

Reiterating what has been said a thousand times here, if you perk one, the next best will get overused and the same thread will appear on that plane. Sure, it's a crutch. But what will eventually end up happening while you take crutches away? You limit what newbies fly and HTC limits it's ability to attract new customers. Once membership goes down, membership prices go up. Supply and demand. If I couldn't have flown the three planes mentioned above that I came to fly, I most likely wouldnt have paid the 15$ to see if I could get the perks to afford 'em.

I think it's safe to say that if everyone got their way, nobody would be happy and HTC would be very busy with updates.....

[Shane]

Originally posted by Magoo
Not lately Shane. You must actually be in the arena to dole out the pain...

I haven't seen you in game in quite some time.  Sounds more like empty threats to me

Magoo

hah!

Tour 66

Model type  La-7
Kills In 21

[Soda]

Originally posted by REP0MAN
As somewhat of a noob I wanted to chime in....

REPO, you are absolutely correct, and it doesn't just impact new players, it is felt every time a new aircraft is introduced.  Vetern guys can win through technique with a less powerful ride but even most of them fly a top 10 aircraft because "the jones have one".  Why fly anything else other than if you have a personal attachment (you admit you ended up in an La7 but that wasn't your initial interest).  Thing is, if you lowered the bar for everyone you'd probably not notice.  You'd see some high-end stuff around but the average would still be at your level.  The perk costs to upgrade right now are so extreme that you probably couldn't afford one in your 3 weeks of play, or maybe a sortie or two max, so why risk them.  If the perks were 1-8 points you could probably have tried out a bunch of slightly upgraded rides and maybe had a bit of advantage in aircraft performance in a couple of fights to see exactly how big a thing it can be.

People would complain in giving up any of the top 10 rides because they think they'd be at a distadvantage because everyone else would still have one, not true.  Everyone would have given them up so the relative aircraft level would be the same.  Just would be more options to take tiny steps up for low perk costs and not have any anxiety about risking them.

-Soda

[Hoarach]

Originally posted by REP0MAN
As somewhat of a noob I wanted to chime in.

I am three weeks out of free trial. The reason I came is because I love WWII stuff. Planes mostly as I myself fly. I also love manning 5mm CV guns and Panzers.

I like the La7 and the La5 for all the reasons you guys hate it. But I usually get my *** handed to me because I am not that good. Sure, I may turn and run if I get damaged or pilot wound but I do love to stay and fight. I will agree that others HO and run. I get it all the time. Its part of the game. I also get HO and run by alot of other planes. I think last night the majority of fighters I saw were 190, 109 and spit. But I dont care. If I win, yay. If I die, dang. Its a game. Its fun.

My point being, as a two week'er, I would not have had any fun nor luck gaining kills or being much in the fight with all early war aircraft or 'left-over free planes'. I came for the P-51D, P-38L and the Spit because of my interests in the history. But what I found when I got here is the f-4's, N1K's, BF-110's, 109's, tiffys and yes, the La's. It got me back in the history books looking at the other varieties that WWII had to offer. I even have a thing for flying mossies as a fighter. (Thanks Tex)

Reiterating what has been said a thousand times here, if you perk one, the next best will get overused and the same thread will appear on that plane. Sure, it's a crutch. But what will eventually end up happening while you take crutches away? You limit what newbies fly and HTC limits it's ability to attract new customers. Once membership goes down, membership prices go up. Supply and demand. If I couldn't have flown the three planes mentioned above that I came to fly, I most likely wouldnt have paid the 15$ to see if I could get the perks to afford 'em.

I think it's safe to say that if everyone got their way, nobody would be happy and HTC would be very busy with updates.....

However when you face 51s, 190s, and 109s, they burn E much quicker especially you dont really see that many turn back to fight but would rather go up and over.  For me in my 38 I just follow them until they go up and just go up after them because the 38 is a great stall fighter and will usually win unless the 51s, 190s, and 109s are going at least 400 because the 38 also has great acceleration.  

When it comes to the la7 though they usually dont turn back and dont burn E as quickly and will usually get away.  You can perk the la7 and the noobs will still have the la5 which I myself feel, dont know how other feel, is a much better plane because it turns better than the la7.  Noobs also have the spits which are excellent planes especially the 9 which has somewhat good speed, good turning abilities, and has good guns.  Your not really limiting what noobs will be able to fly just getting rid of a plane that is pretty much the best overall aircraft that can pretty much do what other planes can do with speed, turning, and acceleration.  At least the other aircraft arent all good in those areas such as the 51 which has speed but not really being able to turn with many other planes very long, same with the 190.  Ive seen 109s being able to turn halfway decent depending which 109 your up against but not all have great speeds.  The 38, if well flown has the ability to turn with most aircraft and has halfway decent speed.

Its just that why should noobs be able to fly the best plane that HT has to offer and being able to outrun, outturn, or etc the veterans.  It has speed comparable to perk aircraft and can turn better than most perk aircraft.  So why shouldnt it be perked?

[Soda]

Originally posted by Magoo
Thanks for the comments Soda.

Of course that is what happens currently with the perk rides, but if that's a bad thing then why even add perk planes to the game?

Let's run with your ideas "for the sake of conversation" ...

Ok Magoo, now you make me bring up Part 2 of this idea (though I hadn't discussed it before but here goes).  The issue is, we have a "landing-refund" perk system right now.  If you land you get your points back. It's obvious why people are shy when they know they need to land.  What about a "kill-refund" system, you get points back each time you make a kill, landing them means nothing.

So, here goes, you base the refund on a number of kills you deem "aggressive enough", say 3.  Thus if you land with 3 kills, or die with 3 kills, you get your refund. Landing with 10 kills earns you no bonus.  So, for each kill you get 1/3 of your points back, dying with 2 kills you'd still get a 2/3rds refund, etc.  That simple, if you launch and land with 0 kills, you get no refund.

This attempts to balance aggressiveness with some reward.  Once you hit the 3 kill mark (or equivalent, see later) you are home-free and can put caution to the wind.  If you fly around looking to cherry-pick and don't get anything you'd be losing your perks by simply landing.  You can use the re-arm/re-load pads to extend a sortie to try and pick up your 3 kills but in doing so you are still a target for someone to bounce while on the pad or taxiing.  No "bail on the runway" the second someone makes a vulch pass on you, you'd lose your perks, you may as well hope they auger to give you 1/3 of your points back for free.  Same for damaged aircraft, that P-51D (assuming it's perked) with a rad hit is going to be in the ultra-aggressive category if he doesn't have his 3 kills.  No running for home, better to stay and try to pick up some quick kills before the engine seizes. The "equivalent" thing comes from assists, which right now are essentially worthless, but could in this model be considered half-kills.  They'd refund 1/6th as a result such that 6 assists would give you the full refund just like 3 kills would.

Just thoughts... disco's/ALT-F4's wouldn't get any partial refund, just hope you disco after you picked up some kills as the refund would happen at the point you got the kill.  If you disco'd with 3 kills then it doesn't matter anyway.  Heck, you could HO everything, die, but as long as you took the other guy with you you'd get 1/3 of your investment back.

-Soda

[Spongebob]

The issue is, we have a "landing-refund" perk system right now. If you land you get your points back. It's obvious why people are shy when they know they need to land. What about a "kill-refund" system, you get points back each time you make a kill, landing them means nothing.

Brilliant! (said with an English accent)

Heck, even a rental system where you burn X amount of perks for a perk ride no matter what would work. Just don't make the rental price so steep.

OK Soda, within that system, let me throw this out for a solution. What about when a player wants to use the perk plane in attack mode? The F4U1-C is an excellent attack plane for example. Yes you get kills in attack mode too but your gonna take some lumps from the AA and end up low after a bombing run which may limit your opportunities. Maybe a straight rental price in attack mode? Of course you could check the attack box but fly as a fighter but I don't know what that gains you with a rental fee.

I think it's safe to say that if everyone got their way, nobody would be happy and HTC would be very busy with updates.....

How does the saying go "if you try to please everyone, nobody will be happy".

REPOMAN, thanks for the input. Soda and I are old timers in AH so a noob-view is absolutely pertinent.

I came for the P-51D, P-38L and the Spit because of my interests in the history.

I think the P51D is a special case as REPO pointed out. It's what attracts people to the game. With that in mind maybe it just needs an exemption from any proposed perks. Certainly early on in a new guys learning curve.

REPO, when you first came to AH, would you have been upset if some of those late war monsters were mildly perked? or would you have understood that dominance has its price? or as I pointed out with the N1K2, a small production run might be justifiably simulated in game? (Objection! Counsel is leading the witness! )

BTW, have you tried the P51B? It is a much better knife fighter than the D model, with snappier handling. In my opinion the maneuvering flaps also seem to have a better effect in the B model. Having said that, the 4 50s may not suit you. I'd mention the poor rearward view but the Malcolm hood for the B is soon to arrive and may alleviate that.


You know, I just had a thought (nobody panic!). Looking at perks in reverse, what if you got perk points just for flying soties in some of those early war dogs, kills be damned? The P40B for example. You pay to fly the dominators and get paid to fly the duds. I guess depending on how you arrange it, it's six of one and half dozen of the other.

Magoo

[Soda]

Originally posted by Spongebob
Brilliant! (said with an English accent)

...OK Soda, within that system, let me throw this out for a solution. What about when a player wants to use the perk plane in attack mode? The F4U1-C is an excellent attack plane for example....

There can't be any exemptions. If you want historical the ToD is more likely to be the place you want to do anyway.  The P-51D is honestly more powerful overall than the La7, just the La7 is maybe a better fighter at low altitiudes in "Average" hands.  No exemption.  As for attackers, well, if you want the big firepower/ordnance of something like the C-Hog or P47D40, be prepared to pay the cost.  Lots of free aircraft will be able to carry ordnance though maybe not quite as much or be quite as capable in the swing-role.  Maybe if you select "Attack" though your "kill-refund" can be based on damage done and not on fighter kills.

Bombers and GV's should get the same system though.  It would make the diversity of GV's spread out a lot, the Panzer would be a perk certainly with the Tiger more, the T-34 would probably be the entry-level free GV.

One thing I would exempt would be C47's, LVT and M3's with troops.  No need to limit those, they are simply targets anyway.

-Soda

[REP0MAN]

REPO, when you first came to AH, would you have been upset if some of those late war monsters were mildly perked? or would you have understood that dominance has its price? or as I pointed out with the N1K2, a small production run might be justifiably simulated in game? (Objection! Counsel is leading the witness!

Probably. I mean if I got up in something that was inferior to a perked plane that people who already had years of time killing are dominating the skys, I most likely would have got my free two weeks of killing then went back to the offline IL2 or the older Euopean Airwar. I could also go back to the medal of honor series and just be a drunk goon. But I most likely would not have stayed here to pay to get shot down all night.

Right now I get killed alot, mostly by trees and earth. But I have the advantage to up in a p-51d or even b (which your absolutely right about) a p-38, a spit, a bf 110g and even an La7/5 and actually go out looking to piss off a vet and try to kill him in his late war monster. I actually stand a chance with a like or similarly agile aircraft. I may loose, which I do alot, but at least it was not the inferior planes fault. I would most likely pass on engaging aircraft until I found one that would be worth trying if we went to perking all the "good" planes.

, just the La7 is maybe a better fighter at low altitiudes in "Average" hands.

Soda has hit it on the head here. People fly the La's and the P-51s because they are agile and it puts them at an immediate "i have a chance"  state with the veterans. Now that I have gotten better I try to fly other varieties of planes. Last night was in a tiffie all night and landed tons of kills. I loved the plane except for the small amout of cannon rounds they give you. I made it my mission to put it against the La. When the La stuck around, I did well. So I will fly the Tiffie for a while. Of course when the squad flys together we fly what the boss wants to us to fly. But thats another ball of wax.

Thanks Magoo and Soda for allowing noobs like me to add opinion and not discounting it to dweebery.

[SuperDud]

Don't perk it, I need to be able to get kills!

[dedalos]

Originally posted by SuperDud
Don't perk it, I need to be able to get kills!

Supa confused the LA7 thread with the 5" gun thread again.