Author Topic: Woman joins Air Force Thunderbirds (Read 1245 times)

Suave · « **Reply #15 on:** June 17, 2005, 07:58:19 AM »

It's like in 94 when korea was heating up. The big news story was that the US was going to deploy patriot batteries to the penninsula for the first time evar. People who had been in 2ID and 8th army over there were like, "yeah, first time this year I think they mean".

Morpheus · « **Reply #16 on:** June 17, 2005, 08:03:44 AM »

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Originally posted by Schaden
Amazing how photogenic all these army gals are.........probably just coincidence..right?

Air Force big guy. Not army.

Schaden · « **Reply #17 on:** June 17, 2005, 08:06:20 AM »

Ahhh this would explain it then....

culero · « **Reply #18 on:** June 17, 2005, 08:20:00 AM »

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Originally posted by Suave
Yeah culero, notice in that article they stress the term demonstration pilot. I'm glad the airforce set it straight. The mainstream news media makes it sound like there's never been a female in the thunderbirds, let alone a female that could fly a plane.

Has there ever been a time in the last 15 years when the thunderbirds didn't have women on the team ?

Well, Suave, its like this: in the minds of most folks, "Thunderbirds" = the team you see flying demonstrations.

I do take your point (that there's a larger team involved) but IMO what you are arguing is akin to a semantic quibble.

Would you take "Green Bay Packer" to mean a football player, or would you insist that everybody employed by the organization should be referred to in that way?

culero

Suave · « **Reply #19 on:** June 17, 2005, 09:16:57 AM »

Well it's not the most gracious admission of defeat I've ever extracted but I'll take it.

Frankly speaking, you could do better culero, I'll expect more effort next time.

lazs2 · « **Reply #20 on:** June 17, 2005, 10:00:55 AM »

"Oh sure... they can fly fighters and kill bad guys and clear trenches... but don't let 'em vote! Huh lazs?"

I don't really care if they fly fighter jets at home. I do not want to fight alongside them or be in any dangeous job alongside them. I don't think it is fair to our men to alow women in combat.

None of this of course has anything to do with letting them vote, my position on which, is clear and unchanged.

lazs

Morpheus · « **Reply #21 on:** June 17, 2005, 10:11:19 AM »

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I don't really care if they fly fighter jets at home. I do not want to fight alongside them or be in any dangeous job alongside them. I don't think it is fair to our men to alow women in combat

Lazs, why?

Hangtime · « **Reply #22 on:** June 17, 2005, 10:33:23 AM »

I don't feel any diffrently than Laz does..

Look, we're all products of our conditioning.. upbringing, education, morals indoctrination begins at birth. In my generation women were 'different', by definition and dispostion we (males) were conditioned to react to the female not as an equal.

In a 'chips down' situation I'd be distracted no end by the presence of a woman in harms way.. this would endanger other folks unfairly; affect the snap-judgment and decision chain and likey disrupt or hinder (at best) the outcome.

Today, men are expected to treat women (by mandate and law) in society as 'equals'. The social taboo's have been lifted somewhat. I don't argue the point per se, I just recognize I'm unable to react correctly given the new ground rules in a hyper-critical situation.

Hence, I'd react very negatively to a woman foisted as an equal in my hypothetical combat squad. My Forebrain has all the PC symbology, my Hindbrain will never accept it.

Morpheus · « **Reply #23 on:** June 17, 2005, 10:37:13 AM »

If a woman sits in the seat of a fighter, its because she earned it.

Period.

They dont give 10-20-30 ect Million dollar Jets to girls because they are worried about their image. Or are trying to be politically correct.

Get real.

Hangtime · « **Reply #24 on:** June 17, 2005, 10:45:49 AM »

Your faith in the military's publicity and promotions department is laudable.

While I'm in agreement that she's no doubt a competent pilot and qualifed on the equipment to such a degree to recieve the posting, regardless of how you or I feel about it, the folks that will need to have the point proven to them are the other members of the Thunderbirds.

She'll either cut it, or they will weed her out.

Morpheus · « **Reply #25 on:** June 17, 2005, 11:00:17 AM »

Its got nothing to do with faith.

From my own experience of how picky, hard, what a complete pain in the ass, it is to get into the AF acadamy, or even be considered... Whatever the rout she took to get to where she is right now... She worked like hell to get there. Thats not a theory of mine. The dont give anyone a free ride. Granted, some roads may be smoother for some than others. But there is no free passes handed out at the door... Or even before you get to the door.

The fact that she is a woman flying a jet has nothing to do with her abilities as a pilot or in combat. It may to you because you think its unfair... or that a male pilot would be better suited. If that were the case, another male candidate would have filled her slot for pilot training long before she ever got to where she's at now.

You're right. I do have faith, some faith in their decision making process and aproval process. When it comes down to who's a better pilot, who better abilities in the air and on the ground in desicion making, who is more well rounded than the next... there is no faking it. And they arent going to see a set of tits and say here's your free pass have a nice day.

Hangtime · « **Reply #26 on:** June 17, 2005, 11:34:03 AM »

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Originally posted by Morpheus
Its got nothing to do with faith.

From my own experience of how picky, hard, what a complete pain in the ass, it is to get into the AF acadamy, or even be considered... Whatever the rout she took to get to where she is right now... She worked like hell to get there. Thats not a theory of mine. The dont give anyone a free ride. Granted, some roads may be smoother for some than others. But there is no free passes handed out at the door... Or even before you get to the door.

The fact that she is a woman flying a jet has nothing to do with her abilities as a pilot or in combat. It may to you because you think its unfair... or that a male pilot would be better suited. If that were the case, another male candidate would have filled her slot for pilot training long before she ever got to where she's at now.

You're right. I do have faith, some faith in their decision making process and aproval process. When it comes down to who's a better pilot, who better abilities in the air and on the ground in desicion making, who is more well rounded than the next... there is no faking it. And they arent going to see a set of tits and say here's your free pass have a nice day.

You seem to be laboring under some misconception regarding my judgement. Possibly you can dispense with the knee jerk PC womens equality diatribe and re-read what I've posted.

You asked 'why', I explained 'why'. I also explained that what goes though my old school brain is not compatible with todays military thinking regarding women in combat roles.. and why. I did not pass judgement on her suitability. On the other hand yer in some kinda rush to rubber stamp the Air Forces pick.. and I'm pointing out that the folks she's gonna have to fly with will make the ultimate decison on her suitability in that team.

We ALL appreciate the difficulties and hard work that goes into getting into a Military Cockpit... and nobody here but you seems to be implying she got there by any other means than hard work and dilligence.

Sandman · « **Reply #27 on:** June 17, 2005, 11:35:41 AM »

A few years ago, the F/A-18 test squadron out here had a woman pilot... LCDR, if I recall. She was EXTREMELY sharp.

I have no doubt in my mind that a woman can fly a fighter and do it well.

This is not to say that any woman could do it. Hell, there are plenty of men that couldn't either.

In the past, Hangtime was probably right. Anyone recall the woman that crashed an F-14? There were quite a few that had doubts about her ability, IIRC.

Toad · « **Reply #28 on:** June 17, 2005, 12:19:56 PM »

Hultgren.

There isn't any doubt that there are some women that are military flyers that really shouldn't be doing that. I saw one of those when I was in, from the very first cadre through UPT.

OTOH, there are even more men that are military flyers that really shouldn't be doing that.

Were some women flyers given "special treatment"? Yep. So were some men.

It happens. It's not the norm. It's life.

Morpheus · « **Reply #29 on:** June 17, 2005, 12:28:33 PM »

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You asked 'why', I explained 'why'. I also explained that what goes though my old school brain is not compatible with todays military thinking regarding women in combat roles.. and why. I did not pass judgement on her suitability. On the other hand yer in some kinda rush to rubber stamp the Air Forces pick.. and I'm pointing out that the folks she's gonna have to fly with will make the ultimate decison on her suitability in that team.

Did I really ask you why? I dont seem to remember asking you. Maybe you can direct me to where it was I said this.

But sinse you felt the need to comment, the very least you could do is back your opinion up with something substantial. Substantial is not, "I am an old timer with old timer opinions".

So far you have given me no solid evidence as to why a woman is not suited to fill the position of a combat fighter pilot. Neither has lazs. But he also has yet to respond.

What evidence to I need to give? None. Its all right in front of you. Why you think the Air Force is handing out meal tickets is your problem, and misguided assumption.

Yesterdays standards maybe? What were they? If you could give birth then you werent suited to fight in combat? Fly fighters? Fire a gun? What?

I would bet every last penny I have that 99% here, couldnt do what she does. What you said is disrespectful to not only to her, but to the Air Force as a whole.

But who am I to say right?