Author Topic: Woman joins Air Force Thunderbirds  (Read 1244 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Woman joins Air Force Thunderbirds
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2005, 05:59:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman


In the past, Hangtime was probably right. Anyone recall the woman that crashed an F-14? There were quite a few that had doubts about her ability, IIRC.


She was stationed here in San Diego.  At first there was a lot of mud slinging on how she only became a pilot because she was one of the first females allowed to fly naval combat planes.  That was until it was found out that her plane suffered catastrophic engine failure during her landing approach on the CV.  


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline spitfiremkv

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1135
Woman joins Air Force Thunderbirds
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2005, 06:07:11 PM »
I'll wear a crash helmet next time I see the T-birds perform.

oh yeah and

|
|
|
|
V

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
Woman joins Air Force Thunderbirds
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2005, 06:17:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bustr
Hangtime,

Times have changed a bit. I'm from your generation and have similare reactions. The instinctive response to keep women and children from harms way is basic survival of the species. Allowing women to be slaughtered on the battel feild in the numbers we once did would mean species suicide. The human species can be rebuilt from a disaster as long as you have a handfull of males and large pool of females. We forget in these modern times that the source of our survival is our females.

War untill recently was a very physically violent affair. Now with technology ones mind and ability to use it in concert with the technology becomes the primary divider of the chaff from the wheat. Yes with technologies help in our new age style of warfare women are equal to men.

God forbid if we have another global war that decends back into the all consuming physical brutalality and casulties of previous centuries. Wars like that border on species survival and only a fool would suggest placing the species source of survival in harms way.

War is not some Politically Correct  game of gender equality. We should really have warning bells going off in the animal part of our brains shouting at us that something is wrong in sending our femals off to die. When the war is over, who's left to make children? Seems like a dumb species survival strategy to me.


I hear yah Bustr.. I have a daughter, 21 years old, and my ex-wife.. both demand 'equality' and from what I've seen regarding how tenacious they are when confronted with adversity, how brutally viscious they can be when their views are challenged I have no doubts that they should receve equal consideration with regards to fair treatment in the workplace and the body politic.

My brain know this.. yet I still move to open a door for 'em, and if anybody ever even looked like a threat to either of 'em (or any other woman in my view) I'd probably react with boneheaded 'caveman' hindbrain action. This 'gorilla' attitude has earned me my fair shir of bruised shins.. no matter; it's built in; was installed at childhood, and is not a function I'll ever easily or comfortably forstall.

It's 'social conditioning', drilled in our old heads by the social dynamics of the times we were reared in. Times have changed.. my grandkids will likely not have the knee-jerk reaction to close proximity females I came up with.. I know my kid does not simper and shy away from the stuff that made young girls squeal and cry when I was young. The Social landscape has changed.. somewhat.

Do I agree with it all.. women in combat, serving on ships, driving trucks into ambush zones? nah, not really. But I know I'm an antique.. and the facts say they can do it if trained for it.. just like the facts show I'm against it because i was trained differently.

Pilots have a saying "You Fight like you Train." Combat arms commanders have moved along from the R.Lee Ermy sterotype, today they deal with diffrent realities than I can grasp.. it ain't my Army anymore... the new kids in the field have tools I don't recognize, troops trained differently than I was trained and fight actions we never considered 'military' in scope when I served.

So.. I sit back and consider how I'd react to having a woman in my Squad and shudder... Todays squad leader just see's another body. I see a liability, the new leaders see just another troop... or they're censured and booted for non-conformity to current policy.

Tis the way of the world.. times change, the old folks shake their heads and rue some of it from the comfort of our rockers..

"dammit woman, where's my teeth?"
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
Woman joins Air Force Thunderbirds
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2005, 06:19:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
She was stationed here in San Diego.  At first there was a lot of mud slinging on how she only became a pilot because she was one of the first females allowed to fly naval combat planes.  That was until it was found out that her plane suffered catastrophic engine failure during her landing approach on the CV.  


ack-ack


Then, I stand corrected.
sand

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Woman joins Air Force Thunderbirds
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2005, 06:23:14 PM »
I never have heard the "straight" of Hultgren's accident.

The "bad pilot" story is out there along with the usual coverup allegations: http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3264

Quote
In October 1994, Lt. Kara Hultgreen was killed during an attempted landing of her F-14 on the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln. Femfeared (fear of feminists) Navy officials first re ported that engine failure caused the death of the Navy's first female F-14 pilot. That was a deliberate lie and coverup as later revealed in a leaked Mishap Investigation Report and the Navy's Judge Advocate General's report.

After three requests, under the Freedom of Information Act, the Center for Military Readiness recently obtained a 1995 report written by Admiral Lyle G. Bien. The report confirms special treatment for female F-14 pilots. It also confirms that Lt. Hultgren was retained in the F-14 training program and graduated to the fleet despite low scores and four major errors (Downs), two of which were similar to those made the day she died. Just one or two major Downs have been enough to send men packing.


Anyone got a copy or link to the reports this guy mentions?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Suave

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2950
Woman joins Air Force Thunderbirds
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2005, 05:40:45 AM »
Aww c'mon culero. You're lack of response makes me think you might take me more seriously than even I do.

Offline culero

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2528
Woman joins Air Force Thunderbirds
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2005, 07:57:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Furious
Yeah, you try to sell that crap to a thunderbird.  

My father was not a pilot, but he was a thunderbird.


Its not crap at all. Its simply the truth.

Try to wrap your pointy little head around the fact that what I'm saying here is that its understandable the media would report this as "First female T-Bird", because that's exactly how their audience will perceive this.

Communication is as much how what you say is understood as it is what you literally said. I could say "Your Mother", for instance, and many people would perceive it as an insult...even though I didn't actually utter an insult in any literal sense.

Are all members of the Thunderbirds team Thunderbirds?

In the minds of the members of the Thunderbirds team, and anyone who understands what it takes to support those performances, absolutely yes. I would agree that the TRUTH is here. Its just like car racing, for instance - in most peoples' minds, the driver gets all the credit, but the driver couldn't do squat without his crew.

But that group of people who understand this about the T-birds is probably...what would YOU guess?...maybe 1% of the target audience of the media story?

Be honest. In the minds of most of the people in this world who are even barely aware of the Thunderbirds, is there any awareness that there's a lot more to that show than the pretty planes zooming overhead and the gallant pile-its flying them?

I don't think so, hence my point. Most people seeing this story perceive "Thunderbird" to mean one of the pilots flying in the show, exactly as they perceive the name of any sports team to represent only the players on that team. That's why I don't find it remarkable that the media reported it the way they did.

culero
“Before we're done with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in Hell!” - Adm. William F. "Bull" Halsey

Offline culero

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2528
Woman joins Air Force Thunderbirds
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2005, 07:59:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Suave
Aww c'mon culero. You're lack of response makes me think you might take me more seriously than even I do.


Some people work for a living. Don't allow the limits on my presence here to alarm you ;)

culero (oh, and see my reply to Furious, it may enlighten you)
“Before we're done with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in Hell!” - Adm. William F. "Bull" Halsey

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Woman joins Air Force Thunderbirds
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2005, 08:29:34 AM »
opening doors for women is just a social manifestation of an instinctual behavior.  The absolute wrong instictual behavior to have in a dangerous situation unless....  as it was intended... it is to protect the breeder.

Putting them purposely in harms way with other males around is stupid.

lazs

Offline spitfiremkv

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1135
Woman joins Air Force Thunderbirds
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2005, 12:22:56 PM »
the kitchen can be a pretty dangerous place too lazs...hot wather, knives, power plugs...

Offline Dnil

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 879
Woman joins Air Force Thunderbirds
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2005, 12:54:46 PM »
just a little side note.  The F-14 Hultgreen was flying was one of the 4  that got libyan  kills.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Woman joins Air Force Thunderbirds
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2005, 01:08:09 PM »
Didn't know that tidbit Dnil. Thx.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Cobra412

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1393
Woman joins Air Force Thunderbirds
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2005, 01:10:16 AM »
JB73 though she is a very good looking woman, no. I'm an enlisted and she is obviously an officer. She's not the only good looking female pilot we had.

No matter what anyone may think these women are just as capable if not more capable of doing their job than men. It also doesn't matter if it's a woman or a man who dies in the line of duty, their passing would cause the same amount of sadness.

When someone in your unit passes everyone feels it.

Offline Dnil

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 879
Woman joins Air Force Thunderbirds
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2005, 03:13:34 AM »
More useless info for ya Toad.  Yes I was bored....

Copied from M.A.T.S.

160390   VF-41 AJ107 VF-213 NH103 Crashed with Hultgreen
160403   VF-41 AJ102 Confederate Air Force museum, 23.03.1998
159437   VF-32 AC202 AMARC 17.03.1992
159610   VF-32 AC207 exhibit NASM Dulles since Nov 14, 2003. VF-31 NK105--Last Squad.

The Libyan killers.

Offline moose

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2702
      • http://www.ccrhl.com
Woman joins Air Force Thunderbirds
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2005, 05:00:04 AM »
I think regarding pilots, there really isn't much difference between men and women. You're somewhat removed from the battlefield and as long as a girl can cut it I dont see a problem with it.

When it comes to something like infantry combat, I just can't support having women alongside men. Maybe in the future (but i'd rather hope we move away from that kind of fighting by then) but right now I dont think society is at a point where men could fight alongside women in the trenches without it being a potential distraction. It is (as mentioned previously) instinct to protect the women and children, and there are many different situations where an enemy could exploit that basic instinct to gain a tactical advantage.

As long as women are giving birth protecting them will be a normal function of life. I would say it's almost impossible to sever the attachment of the human mother/female psycologically from a soldier.
<----ASSASSINS---->