Author Topic: F1 fiasco  (Read 1729 times)

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2005, 12:33:51 AM »
So.. a french company drops the ball and surrenders to a japanese company when confronted on american terrain... lousing up in the process a european consortium's investment...

does anybody else see the iorny?
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Offline MrCoffee

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« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2005, 12:44:11 AM »
Road America or Barber are probably the two best tracks for F1. The indy raod course isnt all that hawt. Sorry for the rant, I just another angry F1 fan.

:D

Offline DiabloTX

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« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2005, 12:44:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
So.. a french company drops the ball and surrenders to a japanese company when confronted on american terrain... lousing up in the process a european consortium's investment...

does anybody else see the iorny?


Ummmm...so the fulfillment of WWII is now complete?  Surrender to the Germans and now the Japanese?
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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2005, 01:00:42 AM »
I haven't the slightest clue myself.. it all seems so; i dunno...

ironic.
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Offline Monk

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« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2005, 01:11:38 AM »
Was it a surrender or a run away?

Offline Gh0stFT

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« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2005, 02:18:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
I sent the following e-mail to Michelin:

"I was about to order a new set of Pilot MXM4 tires for our WRX and a set of Pilot XGT V4s for our Aerio SX. Both are in need of new tires. However, I am so put off by the events at the USGP, I ordered a set of Falkens and a set of Nittos. Michelin's behavior and remarkably unconvincing excuse for declaring their race tires "unsafe" left an very bad taste in my mouth. I have used Michelin tires almost exclusively for 30 years, but this debacle has soured any desire to pump money into a company that shows such utter disregard for F1 fans here in America. If you bring the wrong tires, that's unfortunate, but racing is all about decisions... I've made mine and I make no excuses."

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...Now, we have Michelin showing up with the wrong tire. Gee, life stinks sometimes.... They want an exception to the rule, the same rule that limited Bridgestone for race after race... Perhaps the rules need correcting, but not now. Finish the season, take your lumps...


You are 100% right Widewing, but at the end it will be all Schumeys fault lol ;)
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Offline straffo

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« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2005, 04:01:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
Let's see.... Michelin's tires were deemed unsafe entering turn 13 because they might not be able to withstand the load applied....

So, brake before entering turn 13, slow down and reduce the load.

Some people argue that the FIA should have allowed a chicane....

Gee, who qualified with a chicane? No one.

Who practiced with a chicane? No one.

Were there any safety studies to determine the possible ramifications of said chicane? No.

9 of 10 team were ok with the chicane.
I guess that they were just not concerned by security and the incredible danger added by the chicane  don't you think there is a flaw in your reasoning ?

Quote
This left a very bad taste in my mouth. I was just about to order two new sets of tires from tiresdirect.com, both of which were going to be Michelins. Today I ordered Nittos and Falkens.
 
I sent the following e-mail to Michelin:

"I was about to order a new set of Pilot MXM4 tires for our WRX and a set of Pilot XGT V4s for our Aerio SX. Both are in need of new tires. However, I am so put off by the events at the USGP, I ordered a set of Falkens and a set of Nittos. Michelin's behavior and remarkably unconvincing excuse for declaring their race tires "unsafe" left an very bad taste in my mouth. I have used Michelin tires almost exclusively for 30 years, but this debacle has soured any desire to pump money into a company that shows such utter disregard for F1 fans here in America. If you bring the wrong tires, that's unfortunate, but racing is all about decisions... I've made mine and I make no excuses."[/B]


Don't you think you are showing a bit of  suffisance ?
Quote

Danica Patrick was the most famous woman driver in motorsports for two weeks. Those F1 teams who refused to race have presented 14 new competitors for that title.....

I'm sure NASCAR was laughing till their sides hurt.
[/B]

Nothing like a sexist remark ?

May I remember you that Michelin handled the problem proposed a solution refused by Ferrari and the FIA ?
Do you remeber also the FIA showed they didn't care of 150 000 spectators on track and milions on TV ?

Offline Gh0stFT

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« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2005, 04:52:04 AM »
listen to Jean Todt:

"Honestly, why should we compromise?" asked Todt._"We try to do a good job with Bridgestone, and we did not do a very good job with Bridgestone since the beginning of the year. We arrive, we are in a situation where we see from Friday that we are competitive, we don't have any problem with tyres so for us it's an opportunity."_
Asked under what circumstances he would you have been willing to race with the Michelin runners, Todt said "I would say three options. One, they could have changed their tyres. Two, they would have to compromise in this specific corner. And three, they could have used the pit lane. If these cars cannot take this corner, what can I do? You would have had a race."

end of this story.

And btw:
the FIA has summoned the seven Michelin teams to a hearing of the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Paris on Wednesday 29 June. The FIA is expected to lay down some kind of punishment to the teams following their decision not to race in the US Grand Prix on Sunday.

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Straffo do you know what a Backup Tire is? every team must bring
backup tires to the racetrack if the race tires dont work. Backup
tires are 100 safe, but much slower. Wonder where this tires where
at sundy? Michelin will have the answere Wednesday 29 June in Paris
for sure.

cu in Magny Cours Straffo!
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Offline straffo

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« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2005, 05:34:19 AM »
Won't be at Magny cour ever;)

The only competion I follow are : le Mans ,WRC and Bold d'Or.

As I still think the F1 is nothing but a comedie since the begin of the 90's.

Offline Gh0stFT

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« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2005, 06:11:51 AM »
comedie yes, but the fastest comedie ! ;)
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Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2005, 08:29:40 AM »
Thought some might be interested in what CheckSix posted over at SimHQ. Hope he does not mind the 'copy and paste'.

Yeah re Flintstones (my name for Bridgestones this year) I have to say its more their own fault.....going back a few years both makers had 50/50 roughly, but Ferrari were starting to put pressure on B/s and started doing most of their testing and forging closer links to the point where they were clearly getting different tyres, in essence B/s were developing tyres specifically for Ferrari (timing = the start of the MSchu era)

Teams realising they were being shafted by B/s and Ferrari started moving to Michelin and voila suddenly getting better.McLaren and Williams first, followed by others. Ferrari basically wanted B/s exclusively to themselves.

Remember how BAR was s**t in 2003 and suddenly went really well in 2004.....well 2003=B/s tyres(basically Ferraris cast offs) and 2004 is the year they changed to Michelin, where they suddenly were being offered decent tyres. B/s became a major sponsor of Ferrari.

Ferrari in essence had got their own way, with a couple of customer contracts who paid for their tyres(Jordan and Minardi) and Ferrari calling the shots with B/s.
Suddenly they (FIA) changed the tyre rule to one set per race etc and it all backfired on Ferrari cos Michelin were sitting with all the teams that Ferrari and B/s between them had 'forced' away and had plenty of data to work with. Ferrari and B/s had basically manipulated themselves into an exclusive supply that had benefitted them for years, but had ultimately backfired in the biggest way. This was before Ferrari signed with the FIA for F1 until 2012 (more on this later)
Re this last weekend the problem was more with the track ....the Oval had been completely resurfaced this year with a new super grippy surface.......however the 'infield' (only used for F1) wasnt touched and was made of a different tarmac mix which was far more slick.

The teams as such dont get to test on the track at all pre GP, so no data apart from previous years races was available. Bridgestone however have a (maybe shareholding) arrangement with Firestone who supply a lot of the Indycars and so had access to all their data when choosing tyres for the race.
The tyre guys under the new ruling can only bring two compounds to each race, and all the tyres are barcoded and recorded by the FIA. The teams do practice (basically to choose which of the two compounds they will use for qualifying and the race)
Come race weekend and Michelin very quickly found out they had the wrong tyres ......neither of the two compounds/constructions they had brought were suitable as the new surface was sending tyre temps rocketing, and with the straight where they are hitting 350kmph the temperatures were going even higher, before going onto a no grip slow infield where the tyre temps dropped away, before back onto the high grip.....Ralph Schu had his accident on the second lap of his first practice session.
Michelin realised very soon they had '****ed up'advised all teams that the only interim thing they could recommend were tyre pressure lift and different camber settings, where the life of the tyre could (repeat could) last for maybe 10 laps.

In the meantime they airfrieghted new tyres from France that they felt would solve the problem of safety....but they were told by the FIA that they were not the 'designated' tyre and couldnt be used, and so Qualifying went ahead using the original tyres with pressure and camber changes.

The FIA then decided that because they(new tyres shipped in) werent the tyres that the teams qualified with that they couldnt be used without contravening subsection D of rule 142/2etc,,,,,,and therefore had to race with the original (dangerous) tyres.
Michelin and the 7 Michelin teams came up with alternative proposals like installing a chicane to lower speeds on the approach to where Ralph had his crunch, they offered to start from the back of the grid, and even offered to race for no points, to at least put on a show.

FIA turned them all down and Ferrari refused to agree with anything seeing a chance to get MS and the team back on the map basically with no competition.
Take into account that F1 as it is at the end of 2007 (the end of the Concorde agreement which is the agreement which governs F1 and who gets what out of the money pie (half for Bernie who has all the TV rights and the rest split with the teams depending on points....more points more $$$. They are currently trying to sign up teams for the period after 2007, and the teams basically want a bigger share of the pie. The manufacturers (Renault Toyota BMW M/Benz etc) arent happy with the proposed offering on the table and have said in essence Get ****ed to the FIA, and that they will go ahead and form a 'breakaway' championship. Ferrari who are happy with their share of the new 2008 pie (because of all the success/points they have had in the past few B/s years) are to date the only team to sign up with the FIA for the future.Their slice of the pie (because they have signed up early) is more than anyone else could or would get) They also have a say in new regulations etc (this is one of the carrotts to sign up, ie sign up and have your input into the new regs)

I suppose in summary it means that FIA and Ferrari are paddling the same boat and in each others pocket.
Back to the USGP Michelin were therefore told they had to run the 'dangerous' tyres and if neccessary all Michelin runners would have to make stops every 10 laps to change tyres (against the rules) and face the consequences of breaking the law.
If all 10 teams agreed to the 'chicane ' being installed it would be ok......Ferrari knocked it back (Jordan and Minardi agreed to the change) and suggested that the Michelin teams go through the corner at a reduced speed to stop the tyres overheating and detonating. Computer tests showed the cars would need to go through in 3rd gear (instead of 6th). The teams knocked this back knowing that in the heat of competition drivers might go faster and cause tyre problems, potentially killing someone or things flying into the crowd.

Michelin therefore stated to the teams that they couldnt guarantee the tyres they could use, the FIA werent prepared to waive penalties for tyre changing, so the teams said they couldnt and wouldnt race.They formed up on the dummy grid to meet contractual obligations to the FIA (dummy grid is classed as 'starting ' the race)Minardi and Jordan amongst themselves agreed they wouldnt start either (Stoddart -the Aussie Minardi owner) hates the FIA anyway and is very outspoken of the new no change tyre policy. He would have been fined for not starting but was prepared to cop that 'as a stance' if Jordan joined him. This would have left two Ferraris only and would have showed the world what salamanders they are.

Incidentally Raikkonens tyre blowout and shunt was caused by the new tyre regs which state a tyre can only be changed if it has punctured- it didnt puncture even when the suspension broke because of the vibrations caused by the flat spot on the tyre. In essence McLaren could have changed it but would have been penalised.

As it turned out Jordan went back on their word (never trust a Russian!) and 'forced' Minardi's hand. (Bear in mind those teams, if they score constructors points, basically get all their freight costs, several million$$ a year, paid for by F1) No points, no handouts.
Michelin agreed they made a mistake and went to huge lenghs to put it right ...the FIA in their stubborness and total inflexibility, and Ferrari because it is the only way they were ever going to get a 1-2 this year are the reason we didnt have a race.

All the FIA press releases have been more tuned to blaming Michelin for the mistake which is totally unfair. Michelin right from the start admitted the mistake.

My views (a bit cynical perhaps but hey thats me) is that what we saw was the FIA making a move to control tyres. They have been pushing this for a couple of years, and last year 9/10 teams voted for it at a special meeting. Ferrari (pre new tyre rule and with B/s exclusively working for them) didnt like it because it would errode their advantage and voted against. This year (ironically 2 days before the USGP) FIA announced the outline proposed new regs with a control tyre to be introduced in the future. As I see they have behaved as they did in a move to piss Michelin off to the point that they leave F1, in effect giving Bridgestone the control tyre contract by default.
FIA Ferrari and Bridgestone 1 the others NIL!

To futher cement my theory FIA after the race announced that they were moving to charge Michelin with 'Bringing the Sport into disrepute!'

Bring on the 'breakaway' group!
The FIA, whose charter is pricipally to regulate a safe and entertaining sport basically 'rogered' the the spectators and the sport fair and square, because legally (but in no way morally) they were within their rights. As such all their press releases have put total blame on Michelin who admitted a mistake. The FIA were more interested in themselves and saw that the whole episode could be be put fair and square on Michelin. They have also stated that the legal repercussions of the race (to the promoters who had to put up with crowds demanding money back have said that Michelin should cover all those losses). In other words they have handballed all responsibility for a result and a farce that a bit of compromise and maturity could have avoided.
I will piss myself if the FIA are left with Ferrari only in their F1. Ferrari are so far up themselves that they believe F1 without them is impossible and no one would watch it.

Offline Gh0stFT

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« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2005, 11:00:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
Thought some might be interested in what CheckSix posted over at SimHQ. Hope he does not mind the 'copy and paste'.[/i]


at least it shows he is NOT a Bridgestone/Ferrari/Schumi Fan
maybe someone wo works at Michelin *lol*
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Offline straffo

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« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2005, 11:14:31 AM »
Sorry Gh0stFT but even if I don't follow F1 as closely as in the past nothing in CheckSix post is wrong or a lie.

If you want to believe otherwise you can ,but having blind faith is never good.