Author Topic: Did You Know?  (Read 1722 times)

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2005, 01:05:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK

Hell we even have running water in our deserts lol


We have irrigation so we can grow CROPS in our deserts.  Damn you capitalism DAMN YOU!

Offline Siaf__csf

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« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2005, 01:12:28 AM »
deleted - rule #4 #5
« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 02:49:01 AM by MP8 »

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2005, 01:25:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
We have irrigation so we can grow CROPS in our deserts.  Damn you capitalism DAMN YOU!


the Horror
the Horror LOL
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2005, 02:20:50 AM »
I think you are oversimplifying the Russian situation, and Boroda may be overcomplicating it.  I'm not there, and of course what we see of the situation here in the US is colored by our media's coverage (when there is any), so my views may not be 100% correct.  But from what I can piece together, its simply a matter of point of view.  

When the reformers came to town in the former USSR, they had a vision of remaking Russia and her sattelite countries into their version of the US.  The problem is, the politicians stuck their heads out into the sun, and the people stuck their heads out into the sun, and decided they didnt like the look of something "new", so they tried to go back to doing things exactly as they always had done them.  Only the system didnt support that anymore, and it fell apart.  No one knew how to operate under the new rules, and didnt bother to learn more than the basics.  People in the govt. had others to explain and interpret the rules FOR them as they went along, and so profited at the expense of the rest even more than they had under the old system.  Under the old system, at least they had limits, people understood how things worked and noticed if you went over the line.  Now no one knows where the lines are.  

Here's a way of looking at it.  Its like someone at the very top said "You all must have the freedom to travel where you wish, so we give you all a new car."  But the people dont know how to drive the new cars.  Then the lower level govt. officials have people who DO know how to drive the cars drive them around, instead of teaching the average person to drive.  Then they tell the average person "Oh, did the govt. not tell you?  You owe a tax on your new car."  And they pocket the money.  Then they tell the people "Oh, you dont know how to drive your new car?  Then we will take it so it does not bother you.  We will give you one of the old cars that you DO know how to drive in its place."  Only the old cars take diesel and the new cars take gasoline.  They stopped producing diesel and only make gasoline now.  So the old cars are useless.  Then the politicians sell the new cars they collected to someone else, and pocket THAT money as well.  End result?  Someone meant well and tried to help, but now everyone at the bottom is worse off than they were before.  

Again, I could be way off.

Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2005, 02:28:57 AM »
Actualy Thrawn is correct and my civilised american freinds you should also remember that not everyone has the same standards as we do in the west. What may look an unservicable old piece of junk to us is pefrectlly usable and repairable in some countries and that includes european nations. I've just been to Italy....!  yet their infrastucture seems to work well enough to keep them happy.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2005, 08:16:11 AM »
boroda has an interesting take... he seems to be saying that the old soviet union sucked because everyone had a job an everything was free but they produced nothing and you had to wait in 12 hour lines for crap.

He seems to think that it is a bad thing that you "pay" for neccesities like food and water and such and that there should be some middleground...

That is basicaly the same old saw.... "communism is great and good.... it just hasn't been done right yet"   Or the reverse... Capitalism is bad... it just hasn't collapsed yet and boy will you be sorry when it does!

I looked at some wastewater info on iraq from trades papers.... If we used USA "capitalist" EPA standards of even decades ago... the old sadman infrastructure would have been condemed with a "cease and desist order" that woulda stopped all growth until billions of dollars of facility rehab had been done.

I am the first to say that our EPA gets carried away big time but... the primitive facilities in iraq were bottom of the barrel.    I would love to tour some of the infrastucture facilities in iraq...  Bet they are all old as the hills and junk.  

Bet the stuff we blew up was the same and I bet the new stuff is good.

lazs

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2005, 11:11:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
boroda has an interesting take... he seems to be saying that the old soviet union sucked because everyone had a job an everything was free but they produced nothing and you had to wait in 12 hour lines for crap.


Strange conclusion from my posts.

There were pros and cons in Soviet system. Many things were absolutely great.

Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
He seems to think that it is a bad thing that you "pay" for neccesities like food and water and such and that there should be some middleground...


I just pointed at two opposite situations: when you're dead without money (no social programms, population is an annoying nuisance for the regime) and "totalitarian" happiness with free bread and milk that are unavailible in real life even for the money.

In late-80s people expected things to develop into a situation when we still have all Soviet good stuff plus some freedom of choice. But we had to abandon things like free medical care and education and have a choice to buy Coke and chewing-gum.

So, I dare to make a conclusion that "democracy" built with US assistance is only a way of marketing Coke and chewing-gum. Noone cares about people who don't buy this artificial poisons. Noone cares about water and electricity until it starts to influence chewing-gum sales.

Lenin said: "When I hear someone talking about democracy, I always ask - in who's favour?". He was a bloody criminal but still a very wise man :(

Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
That is basicaly the same old saw.... "communism is great and good.... it just hasn't been done right yet"   Or the reverse... Capitalism is bad... it just hasn't collapsed yet and boy will you be sorry when it does!


You may laugh at me, but it's almost what I feel. Communism is an utopia, but I really want to live in "Midday World" from Strugatsky brothers sci-fi novells. And capitalism - well, god save America. If your country will collapse - the explosion will touch everyone on this small planet.

The only thing I find really nice in our current situation is that we refused from global politics, we simply sit at the river bank and watch you struggling with the stream, occasionally reaching into the water to get another cold beer ;)

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2005, 11:15:58 AM »
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Originally posted by VOR
It would be silly to say military action + sanctions didn't play a significant role, but it would be equally silly to say it is THE reason the lights won't stay on.



Well, the Defense Intelligence Agency did a series of reports before and after the attacks that predicted the effects of strategic bombing and sanction would have on Iraq.

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/declassdocs/dia/19950901/950901_511rept_91.html

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/declassdocs/dia/19950925/950925_0421pgf_91.html

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/declassdocs/dia/19951016/951016_0me018_91.html


It was the miltary's intention to severally hamper Iraqi civilain infrastructure, vis a vis the attacks combined with sanctions.  The DIA said it was working the way they wanted it to.  

Perhaps that's not the only reason the lights didn't stay on, but it was certainly in my opinion the main reason by a good margin.

Offline VOR

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« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2005, 11:34:49 AM »
Ahh Thrawn I think we're not using the same tense. I'm talking about the last couple of years and not about the infrastructure as a whole (don't know much about it anyway).

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2005, 11:45:36 AM »
Oh I see, sorry for the misunderstanding.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2005, 02:34:25 PM »
boroda... I would only laugh at you because.... communism has been tried many times in many countries and it allways ends the same..  It's crap.  No matter how you do it... it is crap.   the middle ground, socialism.... is crap.

Any system that depends on the producers gleefuly supporting the slackers is crap and is doomed to failure.

What were the great things about the soviet union?   Low crime is all I can see.  

 If housing is free and I have to live in that kind of "free"  house.... I would rather live under an overpass till I could afford a ranch house out in the burbs.

I haven't heard of anyone ever starving to death in the US unless he wanted to or was insane.  

If I think there are walls to keep me in.... It makes me want to leave.

If there is no opportunity to better my lot or my famililys.... why would I bother to do anything?

In an episode of the simpsons... Homer looks at a nursing home and decides, that is the life for him... he rides around in a wheel chair and is spoon fed and gets spounge baths and watches TV all day and gets free drugs and medical care.   That is how communism works to me... bunch of homer simpsons laughing at those who make things.

lazs

lazs

Offline lada

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« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2005, 02:53:17 PM »
Did you know that US administration admited, that Iraq is not more secure that it was in 2003 ?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4090626.stm

Basicaly all that progress whitch we used to hear about was just plain wish.

Do you know that CIA expect more fights in Iraq and admited, that Iraqi invazion has been impuls for new partizan groups ?
(ohh.. damm sorry i wanted to say terrorist groups)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4122040.stm


Did you know that CIA admit that they are teethless agains Osama ?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4110786.stm

Do you know that CIA guys confirmed, that there are no WMD in Iraq, there were not WMD in Iraq before war ?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4484237.stm
Whos head is going to fall now ?

[muhehehe.. and guess what .. nobody is responsible for that troll ... ]

btw do you have clue how many people has die this month in Iraq ?

ooohhhh yeah ..  somebody still call it amazing work ..... yeah ... truly amazing work in iraq indeed.

Anyone have some informations about US-Led corruption in Iraq ? .. I mean .. reconstruction.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2005, 03:05:36 PM »
it seem unconcionable that we could turn the peaceful  paradise that was iraq into this quagmire of death... with no real benifiet to anyone.   We even ousted the kindest man this side of santa to do it.

lazs

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2005, 03:07:08 PM »
Lazs... try looking up some info on the "Rust Belt" and Appalachia.

Don't know about out and out starvation, but certainly malnutrition isn't uncommon.

Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2005, 03:11:19 PM »
Hey lazs, if it's on the Internet it must be true.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
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