Spit9 vs P38L Critiques Pls

[Karnak]

Originally posted by pellik
The 38 can utterly destroy the spit14, too.

Can, yes.  Will, not usually given equal pilots.  Spit XIV has more potential than the P-38J or P-38L.

[BUG_EAF322]

I chased turned and killed 1 spit14 this tour in a P38G . It was very easy.
Somehow when it starts to turn it loses the fight.
Love em and they way over priced too
Dont understand why they perked  at all.

[BTW]

I'd guess they were over priced as you hardly ever see one. You'd think someone would notice.

In 1 year and about 9 months of AH, I've seen 2 spit14 in combat. A truckload of 262's, f4u1c out the ears, temps out the yen yang  but *2 * spit 14's. You'd think someone would notice. Dont they have a tool to quickly see which planes are being flown?

[detch01]

Originally posted by pellik
The 38 can utterly destroy the spit14, too.

I think this has more to do with who's driving the XIV and who's driving the 38. There are only 2 areas where the 38 is better than the XIV and those are gun-package (hard to beat nose mounted guns) and horizontal turns at low speeds.
The XIV is more stable at extreme speeds, retains E better, climbs better, accelerates much better and zooms better than any of the 38's. Trying to fly the XIV like a Spit V or IX is typically flown in AH is a mistake an awful lot of people seem to make with it. I think it should be perked but I agree that it is way overpriced. I think C-hog or Ta-152 pricing would let us see more of it in the game without having it turn into an arena monster.

just my $0.02 on the XIV

..trying to stay on topic here:
Fighting a 38 with an e-advantage in a SpitIX I tend to climb gently and keep the fight in turn mode and stay close to the 38 in an effort to make him spend his e while I'm banking mine climbing (try to stay in the 200-250mph range while you do this - don't get slower or you'll start to lose options in a hurry). It takes very good timing and making sure you never lose sight of the 38. Most guys who fly the 38 seem to fly it alot, know it well and those nose guns are deadly at ranges you'd consider extreme in anything with wing-mounted guns. They pack a wallop too so getting scratched tends to mean arterial flow from missing limbs . Trying to force an overshoot by reversing your direction once he's committed might work on occasion too - if he's made the mistake of getting too fast. Not many do but you never know.
If you've managed to get him co-E or near co-E, increase your speed a bit and use the Spit's e-fighting capability. If he isn't a good stick in the 38 you'll be in a position to reverse the situation on him at some point by doing this. If he's good at this and you're lucky enough still alive at this point anyway, you're most likely going to be in a rolling scissor with him if he hasn't decided to call it a "round" and extend to reposition on you. Keep him in sight, when you get the chance, try to force him to overshoot by going slightly negative G and ruddering it around when you're inverted - be gentle with this or you'll spin. Most likely the only shots you're going to get are snapshots as he passes your nose so be quick on the trigger and take anything that looks like there's even the smallest chance of landing some hits on him.
I do this and I succeed about 25% of the time - of course I suck . If I can survive to the scissors stage of the fight my luck goes way up. Good luck and I hope it works for you.

asw

[pellik]

Originally posted by detch01
I think this has more to do with who's driving the XIV and who's driving the 38. There are only 2 areas where the 38 is better than the XIV and those are gun-package (hard to beat nose mounted guns) and horizontal turns at low speeds.
The XIV is more stable at extreme speeds, retains E better, climbs better, accelerates much better and zooms better than any of the 38's. Trying to fly the XIV like a Spit V or IX is typically flown in AH is a mistake an awful lot of people seem to make with it. I think it should be perked but I agree that it is way overpriced. I think C-hog or Ta-152 pricing would let us see more of it in the game without having it turn into an arena monster.

just my $0.02 on the XIV

..trying to stay on topic here:
Fighting a 38 with an e-advantage in a SpitIX I tend to climb gently and keep the fight in turn mode and stay close to the 38 in an effort to make him spend his e while I'm banking mine climbing (try to stay in the 200-250mph range while you do this - don't get slower or you'll start to lose options in a hurry). It takes very good timing and making sure you never lose sight of the 38. Most guys who fly the 38 seem to fly it alot, know it well and those nose guns are deadly at ranges you'd consider extreme in anything with wing-mounted guns. They pack a wallop too so getting scratched tends to mean arterial flow from missing limbs . Trying to force an overshoot by reversing your direction once he's committed might work on occasion too - if he's made the mistake of getting too fast. Not many do but you never know.
If you've managed to get him co-E or near co-E, increase your speed a bit and use the Spit's e-fighting capability. If he isn't a good stick in the 38 you'll be in a position to reverse the situation on him at some point by doing this. If he's good at this and you're lucky enough still alive at this point anyway, you're most likely going to be in a rolling scissor with him if he hasn't decided to call it a "round" and extend to reposition on you. Keep him in sight, when you get the chance, try to force him to overshoot by going slightly negative G and ruddering it around when you're inverted - be gentle with this or you'll spin. Most likely the only shots you're going to get are snapshots as he passes your nose so be quick on the trigger and take anything that looks like there's even the smallest chance of landing some hits on him.
I do this and I succeed about 25% of the time - of course I suck . If I can survive to the scissors stage of the fight my luck goes way up. Good luck and I hope it works for you.

asw

Now I can't say I've fought someone in the spit14 who knows it as well as I know the 38, but I've fought some of the best pilots in the game while they were flyin' em. There are a few more advantages the 38 has over the spit14 that  really hurts the spit pilot. First the spit14 has terrible torque. It climbs better if you stay in a sustained climb, but as soon as you start looking to stall fight the 38 gets much more deadly. You may be able to zoom up 600 ft above me in the middle of a fight, but I can fly like a helecopter and snipe you down. The 38 also has a much better turn radius. So when things get close the 38 can pick up snapshot after snapshot by reversing it's turns. Stall recovery is better in the 38 too, so if both planes go past the stall the 38 may gain angles during the tumble.

So, the 38 counters the spit's climb with  better stall fighting. Powerful flaps and a small turn radius, combined with a super controllable stall, keeps the spit  from turning with the 38. The only thing the 38 can't do much about is the spits speed. Bore and zoom may work if the 38 falls asleep, but  it could also backfire if the 38 gets lucky with positioning.

Oh, and if the 38's flaps start coming out give up that overshoot plan.

[Kweassa]

Well indeed, pellik has a point.

 The long-range sniping aspect of games like Aces High makes a lot of things twisted and hard as compared to real life.

 According to sources like Anthony Williams, 200 meters is about the absolute limit of A2A gunnery against another fighter. 400 meters is the limit against a large, slow, non-maneuvering bomber.

 It's not about the ballistics, but rather the situational complexity concerning A2A gunnery which makes targetting over certain distances ultimately futile. Sakai taunts the USN pilots in his Biography, saying "over 500 meters, they are doing nothing but wasting ammunition".

 Ofcourse, this doesn't apply to just the P-38, but all the planes in the game.

 Whereas in real life, a 300 yard separation would be enough "zoom distance" to execute a nice rope-a-dope, in AH2 you would need at least more than 600 to be safe, especially against Hispano or 50cal armed planes or 109s/La-7s with centerline armament.

 The Spit14 is quite a bit more powerful than the P-38J or L in many ways in AH, and in many occasions it wouldn't have much problem outzooming a P-38 in the vertical by 300~400 yards. But of course, this separation just isn't enough.

 It's the same thing with all planes that are known to 'zoom like the helicopter'.

 The 190A-5 vs Spit5 match up..  109F-4 vs Spit5 match up.... Ki-84 vs F4U-1D match up.. etc etc...

 The 190, 109, F4U are all faster and can outzoom the Spit5 and the Ki-84.. but just not enough to be safe. Inside 400 yards, practically dead.

 Just for the sake of discussion, let's assume for some reason the bullets just don't hit outside of 200 yards in the game. If things are ever like this, the Spit14 has plenty enough juice to outzoom P-38s - at least, enough to be safe and execute a reversal.

 
 ...

 Looking back on how it used to be in AH1 where long range sniping was even worse.. AH2 is still an improvement.

 However, if a Spit14 or a Bf109G-10 has to engage a P-38 of simular pilot skill as oneself, starting out from co-E, then the only real safe way to gain a decisive edge is to take the fight long and slow.

 Lots of climbs, long and boring extensions.. etc etc... until the pure vertical separation between the two aircraft is large enough to give the Spit14 a one-sided BnZ opportunity, using the speed and climb advantage to the fullest.

 A temporary, small margin of speed advantage just isn't enough to rope a P-38. At least, not in AH.

[straffo]

Well I don't think the 200 meter rule applay to people having 10 year (or more) gunnery training , plus a Pc is not a real plane.

[Kweassa]

Well I don't think the 200 meter rule applay to people having 10 year (or more) gunnery training , plus a Pc is not a real plane.

 Yeah straffo. Especially not to people with 10 year gunnery training with icons.

 If there's ever an experiment I'd like to do, it would be the distance marker with enemy icons totally removed from the game, and just +/- signs and country designation icon.

 Some people would STILL be able to hit further out than real life distances, that's for certain, but I'm guessing it'd be a lot less than it is now.

[detch01]

LOL Pellik -  After the lesson tonight you gave me tonight in 38's I'm hard pressed to argue with you on that, but I'm gonna try anyway. (I was the PJ you were lined up on just before you got nailed - it was all over but the crying for me til my buddy came along and saved my hide).
I agree fully that a stall fight is not where the XIV should be against a 38 (or anything for that matter)- especially one in the hands of someone who knows the 38 well. Torque in the XIV is only a factor when you get it slow in my experience with it and it doesn't do well at slow speeds. It could just be my hands but I've found the 38 tougher to quickly recover from a stall than the XIV. The XIV stall recovery is quicker and crisper than the 38 and it does stall turns pretty well, which makes it a pretty capable roper. What it doesn't do well is hang off the prop with any sort of stability so hitting something above you with it in a vertical stall is pure chance.
Overall, I think with 2 pilots of equally high levels of skill, one in a 38 the other in the XIV and each flying their airplane to its potential and neither making any major mistakes, the XIV has the edge. The XIV driver gets to pick how the fight plays out unless he makes a mistake and gets forced into fighting the 38's fight. The 38 has 2 basic choices, fight at speeds where the XIV is comfortable or stay in the comfort zone for the 38 and hope for a mistake from the XIV driver.
Now get the XIV in a stall fight with the 38 and I agree with you. The 38 has most of  the advantages and should win the fight fairly quickly if the 38 driver is at all competent.
It's a completely different story with a IX and a 38. The 38 has pretty much all the advantages going in save roll rate and acceleration and the roll rate advantage isn't that great. Taking the fight vertical just gives the 38 driver the chance to do the helicopter routine. Which is why when I'm in a spit IX being attacked by a higher P38 and I've managed to have survived to where I can force the situation into a rolling scissors at medium(ish) speeds that's my first choice in that matchup if I don't already have a shot. Getting to that point is not a sure thing by any means and I'm certainly no expert with the Spit, but it works more often for me than anything else I've done in that situation and it works almost as well in the fw's, jugs and ponies.

Cheers,
asw

[Suave]

Don't try spiral climb to evade a p38L. P38L can climb like hydrogen and it can keep it's nose up at very low speeds compared to other fighters. P38L also should accellerate much faster than spit9, and obviously it is much faster than spit9. Spit9 will however reach higher speeds in a sustained dive.

But don't try diving out of a fight against a p38L, see the part about acceleration. Bottom line; P38L has a lot of advantages over spit9.

[dedalos]

Originally posted by Kweassa

600 meters?  I stopped trying to rope people cause I constantly get hit from 50s at 800 and 1K.  

I dont see how someone can hit a moving target from a moving platform at these distances.  I don;t even think I can see that far, lol.

[bozon]

our spit 9 is somewhat an under powered model. You have a disadvantage in the vertical vs. the 38.

Also, the turning geometry of the 38 and spit is very different which make people think the 38 turns quicker than the spit. This is an illusion, which many inexperienced players fall for.

The geometry is more important that the actual turn rate. High speed 180 turns are not circular - they are more elliptical and the geometry changes with the ability of the plane to conserve or loose speed during the turn.

Spits hold their E well while turning due to low wingloading, resulting in a more circular "orbit". P47s and P38s dump a ton of E and slow down resulting in an elliptical turn with smaller radius. P38s greatest feature is the ability to fly very tight circles at slow speeds - their turning RATE however is not very good at those speeds. A spit pilot will find himself flying around the 38 instead of up to his 6 and unable to get a gun solution even though he's pulling more degreees per second.

getting to the 38's 6 will require some manuvering and positioning beyond pulling the stick to your belly. you need to work the "circles" to be non co-centric in order to benifit from better turnrate with higher speed.

The vertical case is similar since a loop is usually not a circle but an inverted greek-gamma shaped, and the geometry depends on how you pull the G's in the manuver. This is slightly more complicated since gravity also changes the turn rates on different parts of the manuver. P38 can get really really slow at the top and make this a very narrow gamma. This allows them to be placed inside your loop and do the point up-point down switch quickly.

Bozon

[slimm50]

Originally posted by bozon
getting to the 38's 6 will require some manuvering and positioning beyond pulling the stick to your belly. you need to work the "circles" to be non co-centric in order to benifit from better turnrate with higher speed.

So, maybe a high yo-yo to shorten the spits turning radius, rather than simply trying to turn in the same plane as the p38? Is that what you're sayin?

[humble]

Bozon is comparing turn rate (degree's/s) with turn radius (tightness of turn). Basically the spit turns "faster" and the 38 turns "tighter"...so the spit driver is flying "outside" the 38....as he pulls harder and harder the spit slows down till it enters a situation where the 38 outperforms it....id he misses the relatively narrow window for a good guns solution he's now locked into a fight he cant win vs a good 38 driver. Basically the spit driver needs to maintain a good E state and manuever out of plane to the 38 so that his "larger circle" intersects the 38's "tighter circle" appropriately...no amount of "in plane" manuevering will give the spitty both the angualar advantage and E state required to successfully prosocute a sustained attack.

[jaxxo]

i did a few tests with various gas loads, flaps, speed brakes, and throttle settings with a spit9 vs 38 and i couldnt get the the 38 to outturn the spit 9...or inside it in any situation involving low speeds..guess i was doing something wrong.