Spit9 vs P38L Critiques Pls

[SuperDud]

Originally posted by pellik
When you fly a  plane that's good at everything, you learn to do everything. I can E fight like mad in a 109, but if I get in trouble and have to turn I just don't have the option. Can a good 38 pilot fly the hell out  of anything? Yes. Will he get the same results? Only if he's lucky and keeps the situation geared toward one type of flying.

Very true. But a good pilot will rarely get into a turn fight in a 109 if he doesn't want to(with the exception of Nath who flies it like you fly a P38). The 109 driver knows how to fly the plane he is in at it's advantages. That's the point I'm trying to get across. Most of the P38 pilots that post on here know what they are doing and when to do it regardless of plane. While they are deadly in a 38, they are normally deadly regardless.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by slimm50
So, maybe a high yo-yo to shorten the spits turning radius, rather than simply trying to turn in the same plane as the p38? Is that what you're sayin?

In a flat turn, the Spitfire will chew up a P-38.  That's why the P-38 drivers use a lot of yo-yos and other vertical maneuvers in a angles fight against a Spitfire.  A Spitfire will also chew up any P-38 in a medium speed angle fight.  That's why good P-38 drivers will try to keep the engagement fast or at very slow speeds (below 150mph IAS) where the P-38 can take advantage of the slight advantage they have over the Spit at those speeds.

And to whoever said the Spitfire has a better substained dive speed over the P-38 should take into consideration the experience of the P-38 driver before making that assumption.  The experienced P-38 drivers in this game can make their planes reach 500mph+ IAS and keep that speed and retain control.  

I've also seen a lot of Spitfire drivers try to use a spiral dive to escape from me and that usually always results in their deaths.  The reason is that the P-38 excels in nose down turns and can easily get inside of a Spitfire that is trying to use a spiral dive to escape.

So what is the best way to fight a P-38 if you're in a Spitfire Mk IX?  Keep the fight at medium speeds.  That way, the Spitfire has the advantage and the P-38 driver needs to make a hard choice.  Either BnZ the Spitfire to make it break hard for a angle shot, or bleed it's E so that the Spitfire gets slow and then pounce on it with a vengeance or look for an easier target.  As with all things in life, YMMV.


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by DoctorYO


A smart spit14 will high yoyo and saddle..  high yoyo and saddle..  if the fight gets into the str of the p38, looping, low speed turn/radii etc.. the spit14 has major advantage in acceleration and high speed climb to zip away

Don't confuse climb rate with vertical performance.  Just because a plane can climb better than another, doesn't quite equate also being better in the vertical.  The Spitfire 14 bleeds E quicker than the P-38 in the vertical and the only hope the Spit 14 has if they want to play the vertical game is to make sure they had a significan E advantage to begin with to negate the P-38 better vertical performance.

Also, in a high speed angles fight, the P-38 (specifically the P-38L) has the edge as they turn better at high speeds.  And in the case of the P-38L, at high speeds it can deploy the dive flaps and use them as a high speed combat flap setting. And yes, the dive flaps will aid the P-38L in turning at high speeds.

Back to the Spitfire 14.  In a fight against the P-38, make sure that you have the E advantage and use BnZ attacks but do not extend beyond 3k as you will give the P-38 driver the opportunity to regain the E that was lost in the breaking evasive turn.  That is the major mistake I've seen from a lot of players trying to BnZ is that they extend too far away and that allows the target to regain whatever E and altitude they lost during the evasive break.  Another mistake I've seen by players flying the Spitfire 14 is that they fly it like it was a IX or a V and get chewed up for their mistake.  The Spitfire 14 is best flown like you'd fly a P-51D or a bf109G-10.  In short, use BnZ tactics in the plane.  It's fast for a reason.


ack-ack

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Don't confuse climb rate with vertical performance.  Just because a plane can climb better than another, doesn't quite equate also being better in the vertical.  The Spitfire 14 bleeds E quicker than the P-38 in the vertical and the only hope the Spit 14 has if they want to play the vertical game is to make sure they had a significan E advantage to begin with to negate the P-38 better vertical performance.
ack-ack

I have tested every fighter in the game for both power-off and power-on zoom climb.

It appears that HTC has indeed modeled mass into the equation. Power-off zoom climb always goes to the heavier aircraft. Power-on zooms demonstrate that mass often offsets a power disadvantage.

A Spit14 will not zoom higher than a P-38 if they start Co-E. Neither will a 109G-10. In fact, the La-7 falls behind all three.

Three of the better zoom climbers are the Tempest, F4U-4 and P-47D-40. All are relative heavy weights with enormous power.

Another trainer and I were furballing with he in a Ki-84 and me in a P-38G. Approximately Co-E, he went pure vertical. I followed and not only didn't lose ground, but zoomed right on by.

In a steady state climb, the Ki-84 wins easily. Not so in a pure vertical zoom, where the P-38s mass more than offsets the Ki-84's superior climb rate. If you are Co-E with your adversary, simply zoom climbing is not a good solution to your problem.

My regards,

Widewing

[save]

what model of p38 is modelled in AH2 `?


IRL 38f and 38j models where easy meat for the LW because if things went bad they always could dive away from opponent knowing controls locked up and 38 had to abort pursuit.

38L and later models did not have that problems

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by save
what model of p38 is modelled in AH2 `?


IRL 38f and 38j models where easy meat for the LW because if things went bad they always could dive away from opponent knowing controls locked up and 38 had to abort pursuit.

38L and later models did not have that problems

The P-38G (probably a G-10-Lo), the P-38J-10-Lo (maybe the J-15-Lo, the J-20-Lo had most of the improvements of the L, and the J-25-Lo had everything the L had except rear warning radar and -30 engines) and the P-38L-5-Lo. Since the USAAC did not sanction the use of the increased power settings from the -30 engines in the P-38L, the P-38J-25-Lo and the P-38L-5-Lo and later models were essentially equal in performance. The reason we do not have the P-38J-25-Lo is because we already have the P-38L.


No, the P-38F and the P-38J were well matched to their German opponents given a properly skilled pilot. Having an escape move (in this case a Split S) to escape with your life does not by any stretch make your opponent an "easy kill". Were that the case, by your definition, the Spitfire and the Hurricane would have been easy kills as well, since they could not roll inverted and follow the Split S either, until the Merlin got a new carburetor.

[bozon]

Originally posted by slimm50
So, maybe a high yo-yo to shorten the spits turning radius, rather than simply trying to turn in the same plane as the p38? Is that what you're sayin?

out of plane manuvers will be needed. If the fight is flat a high yo-yo is a good option - not so much for reducing the turn circle as for creating seperation between the spit and the target - you slow down and add vertical seperation for you to manuver inside.

Also, when you bring the nose back down, half inverted, gravity will pull inside your turn increasing your turn rate. Manuvering nose down keeps you speed near the corner speed - giving up on some angles at the begining for a better position will allow you to end up with a smaller radius, good turn rate to compensate for the lost angles AND your target is no longer inside your circle, so your nose can actually reach it at a future point.

When I used to fight spits in a jug I wanted to have the spit as close to me as possible when I start hard manuvering. Spit 9s were very easy to reverse if the fight started at high speeds and they just tried to follow my moves - good pilots knew not to, and were thinking "position" before trying to go for the shot. When I saw their wings not going parallel to mine, I knew I was about to die.

Bozon

[humble]

All this 38 talk made me pull out the ol barge again last night. 1st off not only am I in a "slump" {when am I not:)}...but I basically live life as a target barge in the 38.

Was 5 and 0 in two hops (2 nikki, 3 lala) over big island. Flew it a bit differently based on whats here...had no problem out turning the nikkis and the J just killed the lala's in the verticals. Came back late and flew a couple more...died in both both but the J was dominating the "target" both times....which leads me to the big problem I have in the 38....survivablity. Inevitably I get caught in the "hanging clay pidgeon" mode. Yet I see many of the "masters" nimbly flipping thru clouds of mortals plinking away.

As a final comment I flew a couple more this AM....no problem with spitV at all....simply cant hang with the 38 in the verticals...literally was ~400 out or less (3 differerent fights) with no ability to get nose up for a shot. Did seem to out accerate the 38 on the deck once after I screwed the pooch on a shot...but once I pulled away the 38 handily outzoomed him. Died to another 38 who cherried me and a yak that popped me on the deck...

What I found really interesting was a 1 on 2 with a spitV and a Chog that came in...ended up with both on my 6 low on the deck slow ...and went into the loop game...which I never do....not only did niether get a shot...both augered coming out of 2nd loop.

Sigh...guess its back to the barge of death for another tour:)

[TheDudeDVant]

man.. 2 pages now.. but the simplest most logical answer is clearly a spit9 cannot beat a well flown p38.. 8)  

spits are just spits.. but 38s have style!

[Happy1]

After getting a wee bit of an education on the P38, I fired up a P38L & found that a/c smooootthhhhhhhh in takeoffs & flight, I de-
cided to try looping at various heights & speed ..... man o'man that 38 seems 2b able to loop 4ever with all flaps down     this
plane's a joy to fly.

The lowest looping I performed was at 1.5 angels & was pulling out at the water's edge ... very low  

Tried yo-yos, wingovers & hammerheads everything worked well in a sloppy manner mostly my mistakes.  Being overly confident
(my biggest mistake ) I went to H2H arena flying the 38L & as I was going vertical my rite engine was shot, which proved to be a blessing as I was able to pull a rite-handed wingover on the nme a/c & BLASTED it.

Tried the maneuver by switching the rite engine off(most planes
have left torque) & this maneuver works!!  HOOOOHAAAAA!  Per-
form the maneuver switchon rite engine & off u go  P38 drivers
try it U'll like it!

Is there a "P38L Newbies Guide" available for downloading, the 38 really grows on u, even though it's not what I'm used to flying
Spit9s, the 38 seems 2b a fun plane even though I was shot dwn
often in my trials ... lol...hard 2 get used to that.   Sore loser

Cheers,

Happy1  

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
man.. 2 pages now.. but the simplest most logical answer is clearly a spit9 cannot beat a well flown p38.. 8)  

spits are just spits.. but 38s have style!

hehehe yup!

[Mugzeee]

Originally posted by Widewing
That's just plain nonsense. I have seen 590 mph in a dive flying the P-38 and suffers no damage whatsoever. I have dive tested it from 40k.. at 590 I hit auto-level and it pulled out with any damage. Try that in a Spitfire and the wings will likely go bye-bye.

Yeah, it buffets and shake like a wet dog, but you can't break it.

Someone suggested spiral climbing to escape a P-38. You may be successful against a P-38G, but the J and L outclimb the SpitIX. Spiral climbing against the J or L is like hanging out a "shoot me" sign. If you find a P-38 close on your six, you've already humped the monkey. Getting it off will be extremely difficult.

Anyone interested in trying their theories can log into the TA Thursday and Friday evening between 8 and 10 pm eastern. I'm the designated target on those nights.

My regards,

Widewing

Originally posted by Morpheus
^^^What widewing said.

I've yet to see any damage in a 38 from high speed dives. Often times I'll force it to stay in a drive with trim and pull out of a dive with trim.

Once you figure out and get the hang of flying the 38 with trim at high speeds its a monster and can stick with almost anything in a dive.

Nothing comes apart in a dive on the 38.

Maybe the P38 model needs looked at. Sounds wrong.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Mugzeee
Maybe the P38 model needs looked at. Sounds wrong.

Not really. The P-38 wasn't known for coming apart in a dive, but rather for not pulling out of a dive.

Lockheed test pilot Tony Levier exceeded 600MPH (verified by radar) on several occasions in a dive (he said it was easily controlled to speeds in excess of 560MPH in a dive). The P-38 might bend out of shape, and take a permanent set, or some panels and rivets might come off (other test pilots complained of this when doing dive tests after Levier), but it was rare to have one break up in a dive.

That is not to say it did not happen. One of the Lockheed test pilots was killed when a P-38 DID break up in flight in dive testing. Kelly Johnson said he heard it from inside his office, and figured that the speed was higher than any dive they'd witnessed or recorded. So yes, it is possible to break one up in a dive, or more likely in the pullout (the P-38 was rated 9G+ on the positive, would take even more), but it was not common. Of those that were destroyed in a terminal velocity dive, most were destroyed by the attending collision with terrain.

[Morpheus]

I disagree. I think the air frame is fine. It was a very strong air frame. The thing was a monster... well built and made to take a ton of stress.

Unlike a 51, the 38 can't pull right out of a 500mph dive. You can, but you have to use trim. When it does pull out of a dive it doesnt happen fast... And it wont rip the wings off like a 51 because it can't pull out of a dive as hard as a 51. The 51, if you aren't carful, can rip the wings off in an instant because it still has alot of control at 500mph. You dont need to use trim to pull out of a dive most of the time in a 51, just pull back on the stick. Because of that... if you aren't carful and pull too hard, you'll over stress the wings.

You have to think about the kinds of stress that will pull wings off... Flying straight and level, or in a high speed dive... You aren't going to stress the wings enough to pull them off until you rapidly pull out of a dive. At 500mph in a 38, there is no rapid movments. Get it?

[save]

It is Very hard to kill any fighter plane  1 vs 1 if they know about the others existence.

Remember most of us have more trigger time than real pilots had flight hours.

70% of all pilots shot down did not see his enemy.