Hello Hangtime,
Ok, I've counted to ten and spent some time praying, so god willing I should be good to go.
I posted the examples from the catalog purely for laughs, at the time I figured that even the most militant anti-theist would see the ironic humor in marketing a goody bag with the slogan "Jesus is the Reason for the Season!" but I guess not, my mistake, please accept my apologies for not realizing in advance how this would affect you.
Originally posted by Hangtime
So, If I may be so bold as to inquire.. how much was on the collection plate Sunday, pastor?
To be absolutely honest, I don't know. My deacon and a couple of volunteer helpers (who are all unpaid members of the congregation) handle the collection. I do not even get to see who is giving what. All I see is the final budget with the line items. I receive a salary which amounts to less than half of my family income when I was still a Sys. Admin. before I started Seminary full-time in 1996. Seminary also wiped out our family savings, incidently. My salary is roughly equivalent to the salary of a 2nd Lt. starting out here in Fayetteville, although I have far less take home due to the fact that I have to pay out of pocket for housing and medical for my family. Additionally 10% of my own gross income is tithed and then we give charitably over that amount.
[Frankly, I am not all that comfortable sharing things like that, I strongly believe in Christ's admonition
"But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly." But unfortunately this is at least the second time I've been forced to put this information out in order to defend the honor of Christ's ministry, because I am hardly the only minister in similar circumstances, I know of several in my own Presbytery who are considerably worse off than me - especially those laboring in mill towns.]
Due to the expenses of our rent and things like diaconal giving (last year we gave around 15K away to those in need - which for a church of around 60 members at the time was a sizable percentage) , we are currently operating at a slight loss each month. Both my salary and the budget are public and published on a yearly and monthly basis, you can obtain copies of both by writing to the church via the link in my sig - how about yours?
Which leads me to politely ask.. what are your motives when you question the rights of 'idolators' to share in the profits of the holy 'franchise'?
Share in the profits? Hangtime, let me try to explain the difference via a section from the actual sermon I preached yesterday:
One of the quickest ways you can spot false religion is it emphasis on this: money
Whether it is a high priest who bought his office from the Romans and used it to enrich himself and his family, or Popes who sold indulgences and the offices of the church in order to stock the coffers of the vatican, or Bishops who bought their offices in order to tax the sheep, or Cults who use their followers like cash cows, or Televangelists who peddle phoney healing prayer cloths in order to purchase mansions and limos, or the people who subscribe to the "give to get" theology. It is all a sign of the same corruption and selfishness and avarice that has afflicted men since the fall. It is a taking of the church, and making it into a den of thieves.
What a contrast that is to Christ himself who confessed "The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head." I heard a televangelist explaining that Jesus meant that his advance team hadn't yet booked his accommodations in that city, not that he was poor. What a travesty.
Brothers and Sisters remember that Paul had to fund his missions via his own labor as a tent-maker, and virtually every giant of the Christian faith has either been poor or had just enough to get by, because you see they understood well that you cannot serve both God and Mammon and that with great wealth there are huge temptations. I've been reading Dallimore's excellent little biography of Charles Haddon Spurgeon of late and it is notable that Spurgeon himself could have been quite rich, with the sales of his books and sermons, constant contributions from benefactors and anonymous donors, and even presents from his own congregation that they begged him to keep – and yet again and again he and his wife gave the vast majority of their money away and plowed it back into various ministries and benevolent organizations. So that the Spurgeons often had to economize themselves. This despite the fact that both Spurgeon and his wife suffered from chronically bad health.
Kids, the 23rd Psalm says "The Lord is my…" what? Shepherd. Shepherd's take care of what kind of animals? Sheep. And that is what we are supposed to be Christ's sheep. Now real shepherds love the sheep and are willing even to die for them if they have to. Just like Jesus, the Good Shepherd, gave his life for you and me.
Now let me ask you, do wolves love Sheep? No they only love to eat the sheep. Well the Apostle Paul warned you in Acts 20:29 to watch out for wolves in the church. Now he wasn't saying that you should worry that a real wolf was going to come into the church building. The wolves he was talking about are people who don't really love you, but just want to gobble up what you have.
A Desire for riches amongst the leaders of the church is almost always a sign that the man is not a Shepherd, but a wolf. Beware of him." It is true, the profession of 'Pastor' has many advantages. It offers high status with a safe livelihood free of work in the dreary, sweaty sense. In most societies it offers legal privileges and immunities not granted to other men. But it is hard to see how a man who has been given a mandate from on High to spread tidings of joy to all mankind can be seriously interested in taking up a collection to pay his salary; it causes one to suspect that the preacher is on the moral level of any other con man... including the 'abominators'.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I read the paragraph above. Would that it were in any sense true.
Hang, forgive me for asking, but when was the last time you officiated at a funeral, grieved with the relatives, sat with a dying man in hospital and held his hand as he passed away, counseled couples tearing each other apart, discovered terrible addictions in the life of one of the members of your congregation and then met with them weekly (at no charge) to counsel them and move them towards recovery, gone through the awful trial of necessary church discipline, spoken again and again with wives and children terribly wounded by the infidelity of husbands, carried food to the sick, taught two bible studies, a Sunday School, a childrens catechism class, and prepared and preached two sermons every week of the year with only one "day off" a week - that usually got interrupted? I ask because that's just a small part of the pastoral ministry that I and countless other men are committed to performing.
As for high status or esteem, that I suppose would be nice, but the average low view of Pastors (your opinions above, especially amongst young people in the Western world, are depressingly common) at least keeps one humble and committed to the idea that rewards are not something to be found or desired in this present evil age.
As far as legal privilleges and immunities, please tell me what they are? I pay taxes on the sales, local, state, and federal level as a self-employed worker. I know of no privilieges I enjoy that are not open to any member of the congregation. In fact as members of the military, they often have privileges I don't (comissary, BX/PX, discounts offered by merchants, etc.) Oh, wait, I do remember one, I have a couple of "pastors" parking slots at the local hospital when I am making visitations to the sick. Usually a non-clergy member has already scooped it up because everyone realizes there is no fine like there is with the handicapped spaces.
As far as not getting paid a salary to do what I do, that would also entail being starving and homeless. I spend more time at work now than I ever did working in advertising, retail, or computers, and there have been far more times in this job I've simply thought I was going to crumble entirely, particulary last year when several families in our church went through some awful crises and we were going through the minor hell of trying to renovate a building according to the draconian "assembly code."
Additionally, in the secular world my family was under far, far, less stress. I can't really think of one thing that is "easier" since I decided to go to seminary (except maybe falling asleep). But hey, I was warned about counting the cost ahead of time and told "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me" so I am not complaining, merely trying desperately to share with you the actual shape of a Pastors life.
Then again, I accept that you believe that my job consists largely of peddling silly and offensive fairy tales and brain washing poor uneducated people for a few minutes each Sunday and that in between that I spend my time sitting around like Smaug on the big pile of mega-bucks I am raking in.
Well sincere apologies to all for being a big downer in what I hoped was a humorous thread.
- SEAGOON
