Sky Marshal program..

[Leslie]

I think streakeagle is on the right track concerning the codes.  Why not implement a system where the pilot programs his flightpath and then sets a code that will not allow the air liner to deviate very far from its path unless the code is re-entered by the pilot.  Basically the plane would be on auto pilot during the flight until time to land.  Seems a system like this would not be too costly to set up.  Its main function would be to prevent terrorists from taking over and using the plane as a guided missle.

Les
SC-Bama

[lazs1]

Look... the airlines can only succed in disarming the law abiding (a microcosm of the whole country)...  they will never prevent a hijacker from getting on a plane armed.   In this case it was with plastic knive that anyone can buy and NO feel good, useless, "tightened security" would have prevented.   Powerful, well trained terrorists could simply grab a stewardess, break her neck with their bare hands and while she is dropping, grab another and threaten to break her neck... ypu don't even need "weapons".  

In those cases.. the terrorists would be confronted with trained sky marshalls and in affect be taking a plastic knife to a gunfite.

Advances in handgun projectiles have reduced penetration while increasing their ability to incapacitate or kill.   If, A terorist get's on board with an MP5... I believe he is up to nothing that will be good for the passengers.    It would be best if he were shot.

I believe toad is right tho... people are easily coned into believing that their world can be a safe place if all the "weapons" are made illeagal.   those of us who know better or have the brains god gave gophers, will simply squeak and fly anyway knowing that we are not trusting to "security" so much as luck of the draw every time we fly.

I know policemen look at it in a professional and experianced way but... the sky marshall and the aircraft situation do not match the street... The sky marshal would be anonomous and have all the time in the world to draw and fire on a nylon knife weilding crazy.

I have heard that yesterday, I bill was drafted to reinstate the air marshall programn.. Apparently it still exists but is a shell of it's former self.


The airlines succeded in disarming every single law abiding passenger in all four of the airliners involved.   The unbelievably brave passengers of the plane that was retaken did so with their bare hands.  They did so with absolutely zero help from all the airport security.   They were disarmed and left to their own devices.  left to face armed terrorists.   No amount of "hightened sucurity" will change that.   It is illeagal to have weapons in prison and the security is pretty good..  Are you telling me you can't get stabbed in prison?  

It is a myth that "not resisting" is a good plan.   In the U.S. at least 2.5 million crimes per year are stopped by the use of a firearm.   Like it or not, that is the world we live in.   the crima\inals will allways be armed when they want to be.   We can only be prepared to meet their force with a level higher.   To meet it with a level lowere is folly.

Sky marshalls on 75% of all flights would assure that it was impossible for anyone to know what flights had em and what didn't.   Not to mention... there would be armed (concealed carry) sky marshalls at airports all over the world as they were changing planes.
lazs

[Mox]

Well said Lazs!  <S>

[Thunder]

I agree with you 100% Laz! I keep thinking about the door to the cockpit again. We heard something like this from the transcript yesterday.

• "get out of here!" <shuffle> <shuffle> close mike...
• "get out of here!" click
• in an arabic accent.. "This is the Captain, remain calm!
• there is a bomb on board, Take your seats we are returning to the airport.

If there had been a Sky Marshall on board he may have been able to prevent it.

If there had been no door the HiJackers would have not been able to gain control of the pilots seat. A Sky Marshall and/or passengers may have subdued the hijakers. But in either case the fight for control would not have taken place IN the cockpit. Some, if not all, of the passengers may have returned and not parrished. I feel that there some brave people on board. The facts seem to indicate they knew that other flights had been used as guided bombs. They seem to have made a determined choice that saved many lives outside the plane.

Creamo,
You posted...

 

You guys are so clueless.
People will demand to fly for $200 coast to coast, and be happy to, regardless if it's safe, by hijackers, or shoddy contract monkeys working on planes.

 

Being a aircraft flight mechanic doesn't automatically make you the sage of aircraft knowledge. I have spoken to other pilots and mechanics that that work for the same company you do and don't share your opinion. I respect and agree with some of what you are putting forth. However, in view of what has just happened, the Airline Industry and the general public may NOT have the final say in this matter. Being "clueless" in my mind would be someone who maintains that things are fine just the way they are because of a few dollars.

Thunder

Thunder

[Creamo]

Then those mechanics and pilots aren't clueless, they fall into the stupid catagory Thunder.


Our industry is about to be hit, and hit hard.

----

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]

[Thunder]

As it should be Creamo!

Changes ARE needed!

[Baine]

The reason this attack worked is because few people ever believed terrorists would fly a plane into a target. Pilots are trained to submit to terrorists' demands as the best way to try to save passengers lives.
This changes all the rules.
Will people armed with plastic knives be able to take over planes again? I doubt it. Passengers, who in the past would sit tight and hope for the best, now know they have nothing to lose and lots to gain by fighting back.
Will cockpits remain open. I doubt it. As someone observed in an earlier posting, the cost-conscious airlines are likely to have little say when lawmakers sit down to start reformulating the rules. A powerful lobby works when the public is complacent, but outrage among constituents has a way of getting a politicans attention.
Will all this help. A little. But the big crash the airliner into a building plan has been done. The people who want to do us harm are probably already looking at other areas where we are complacent that they can exploit to hurt us.
What do we need to do?
Find, identify and kill their leaders.
The world will always be filled with people who hate and want to do harm, there's little we can do to stop that. But doing harm on a massive scale isn't easy. No matter how much we want to admit it, it takes lots of brains and money to pull off a successful big terrorist attack. There aren't a lot of people around who have the talent or charisma to do that. Those are the folks we need to exterminate.
If there is one silver lining to this dark cloud covering our nation today it is that the rules have changed. In the past we were content to arrest and prosecute the soldiers who were sent to carry out the attacks. Let's hope our leaders now know that they must find and attack the generals and mob bosses who planned these events.
Americans are now like a patient who has skin cancer _ they had hoped by cutting out the damaged skin they could control the disease. Now they appear ready to withstand the pain of chemotherapy to wipe out the cancer entirely.

[Pongo]

Any way to override the control of the aircraft from the ground would be suseptable to hacking. very bad idea.
Haveing a large supply of incapacitating gas on the aircraft is also a very questionable idea.
The airmarshals are an exellent idea. Shoot outs? We are susccessful in keeping guns off of the planes...these guys used knives, certainly the max bang for buck is achieved by air marshalls.
I would say 2 per plane. one plain cloths one in uniform. Uniform officer is in body armour. and armed with some highly visible weapon.

Both have some independent comunications to the ground.

So we are talking about hiring 10000 guys and arming them and putting them on AC. Lets be carful how we hire them.

An interesting asside is that here will be turban wearing airmarshalls in canada...Our federal gov allows sikks to wear their turbans as it is a religios requirment..
that will raise some eyebrows having an armed turban wearing officer on the plane..

[Creamo]

Alright Thunder…heh.

I did not claim to being a “sage” of aircraft as a mechanic, I do know the pointy end with windows is the front. Besides, what’s this hijack issue got to do with the airworthiness of a airplane?  If you’re a flight attendant, or a flight dispatcher, whatever, doesn’t make you a industry expert, much like I doubt anyone is asking Sammy Sosa to manage the Cubs or run the GM office, or commission MLB for that matter.

However, I do read airline related newspaper articles, and closely watch the airline companies battle with it’s labor groups, make deals with the government, and try and slide by every rule they can to cut a penny. In addition, for some time, have watched the price wars and competition of the various US carriers. That entitles me to somewhat of an opinion when people announce all these “steal cockpit door”, “build a wall between the crew” and “sky police” solutions. It’s all about money, your friends can’t change that, no matter what they do for a living. In fact, some of these solutions are so far from reality, because clueless seems to be taken insulting, I’ll modify that to extremely naďve.

Do you believe for a second that they will modify a modern airliner as much as having separate crew entry doors, and facilities? Your talking billions and billions of dollars before the airlines lose that much more while they are modified on the ground. All this secure cockpit theory is a bit much, yet you believe it? They are going to bolt in the crew like a Apollo mission and tell them to be careful, don’t smoke in there or it could get real nasty? Did you ask my fellow co-workers that one?  How in the hell does the crew escape from a much more probable problem, as in fire, smoke, or a crash?  Take a 737, add another door, another lav, and somehow stretch it to accommodate these features, or just remove seats? Oh brother…

Like I said, the dollar has killed more people before the FAA was forced to make the companies bite the bullet. This Tuesday was a once in a lifetime event.

There are solutions Im sure, and I think Im “sage” enough on the “obvious” that it’s not going to get solved here, nor is this the place to discuss it. I’ll leave it be. Off to OffTopic. (Although I would like detailed blueprints of your “no door” cockpit theory on my desk by noon. It does sound interesting.)  

[highflyer]

OCTAVIOUS!! that IS BRILLIANT!! I THink that THIS IDEA is utterly the greatest I have heard of YET!

yes WE should Have the Pilots COMPLETELY sealed away from the passengers with thier own facilites and the IDEA of GASSING the Passengers / Hijackers is Truely amaziing!

The only thing we would have to ultimately check for now is gas masks being carried aboard aircraft (along with the usual , weapons of course)

I think that you should run with this Idea,, its surely the FIRST I have heard of it.. (the gas part)

 !!

[Baine]

Don't Israeli airliners have a crew compartment sealed by two heavy doors? It just doesn't make sense to have only a flimsy plastic door between the passengers and crew.
I don't know much about airliner design or maintenance, but I suspect beefing up cockpit security this way is a retrofit that will be given a lot of consideration in the coming weeks.

[Wlfgng]

Unity is the answer.

The people of America can stop this.

for example, the Penn flight.
this was probably the result of heroic actions by a few of the passengers to overthrow the hijackers.

Vigilance and awareness will help.  I can't count how many times I've witness people ignoring obvious threats to security of the country because 'it didn't involve them.
time to wake up..
this is one world and we are all affected.

[Enduro]

You son-of-a-sweety, Tronski.    Just keep your face glued to your TV set over there in safe little Australia, and you'll see what kind of f*cking war I'm talking about!!!!!!!!!  Just be glad you're not going to be on the receiving end of our tactical response.

U smart-ass pr*ck!

 

Originally posted by -tronski-:

Originally posted by Enduro Rider:
[QB]Iofficially declaring war on terrorist factions and supportive governments all over the world.[qb]

Like the war on drugs?

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: -tronski- ]

[Hooligan]

DO SOMETHING!

Right now, send some email to your congressman and senators urging meaningful security procedures.  You can find their email addresses at:
 www.senate.gov  www.house.gov

A lot of the "increased security" measures being talked about in the press would have done NOTHING to prevent the hijackings of Sep. 11th.  For example, prohibiting non-ticketed passengers from entering the gate areas or more elaborate luggage checks would have affected these terrorists not at all.  Determined terrorists will be able to kill flight crews with such mundane items as keys or with their bare hands if necessary.  The only thing that will be effective is having armed law enforcement present who are equipped and willing to use deadly force.

I have seen messages similar to the following being distributed via the internet and have sent such messages to my congressmen earlier today.

 

I realize that additional security for air travel will be implemented but I am terribly concerned that the new security measures will be ineffective.  The only answer to this is to provide armed law enforcement personal on aircraft that can use force to stop the terrorists and to provide a way to secure the cockpit area so that terrorists cannot gain access.

I consider it absolutely imperative to arrange that sky marshals are present on every flight and that some sort of security bulkhead is placed in the aircraft so that the cockpit is sealed off during flight and can only be opened from the cockpit side.

A lot of the proposed measures for increased security that I have recently read would have done nothing to avert the tragedies of Sep. 11.  Please do your utmost to see that MEANINGFUL security measures are adopted.

Respectfully,

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Hooligan ]

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Hooligan ]

[lazs1]

yeah... sleeping gas is a greast solution so long as you don't mind killing a few infants, old people and those alergic to the gas as well as those who migh choke to death, have falling injuries etc.

creamo... being a cynic I tend to look at this much as you do but... I have a feeling that this event is so huge that if will convince even the most brainless among us that no amount of pissant "hightened security" will do a damn thing once the wheels lift off the runway.  

Now... It's no longer about what the passengers are willing to pay.   those on the ground now realize just what a flying bomb that airliner over them is and will demand that there be some ARMED law enforcement on those flights.  

surprisingly.... no one has hit on the possible flaw to the program.... It will do no good if foreign airlines don't have a sky marshal program.   I have come to the conclusion tho that unless an airline has an approved sky marshal program.... they  not be allowed over U.S. airspace.

Look.... all the worthless "hightened security they are going to come up with will probly cost as much as the worthwhile and effective sky marshall program.  

If you get on board a plane and the only possible group that is armed is the bad guys....  You are just rolling the dice.   Your kidding yourself if you think otherwise.
lazs