Sky Marshal program..

[Glasses]

Nice Creamo this is all I wanted a civilized discussion thank you.

[Toad]

LOL. I'll wager you any amount you'd like at 10 to 1 odds that doctors killed WAY more people than airline pilots did last year.

...and BTW, when I was "in", I qualified Expert every year with the handgun. In my squadron, each crew was carrying when we deployed. No accidental discharges in my entire squadron the whole time I was in.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/14/security.htm

"And the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) spent hours dealing with pilots concerned for their safety.

"I'm not sure how many pilots are going to go to work," said Steve Luckey, chairman of the group's national security committee. He said the group is pushing to fortify cockpit doors and likely will be "advocating some sort of weaponry in the cockpit. Firearms, tasers (stun guns), whatever is necessary."

"But even if the protocol is changed, pilots say they put little faith in the strength of cockpit doors. During the past few years, drunken passengers have kicked holes in the doors. Pilots say the doors could be forced open by four or five unarmed terrorists.

By law, those doors are designed to be broken relatively easily so that pilots can escape the cockpit in the event of an accident. But now, pilots see the doors as their last line of defense, and they say the doors must be strengthened to protect flight crews.

"We're advocating right now some retrofit stuff — bolts and whatever it'll take — to fortify that cockpit door," Luckey said."


Change is coming.

<EDIT>:  BTW, I'm at work now. Everyone showed up for the flight deck crews; at least the ones that aren't stranded. It's all very orderly and controlled. A lot of police presence. There have been some issues with getting the F/A's to show up; heard of a cancellation last night on that account.

Lastly, if any "eye gets shot out" it'll be in the head of someone trying to illegally enter the cockpit. I think THAT is what most passengers would want and expect.

[ 09-14-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]

[Creamo]

Ok, I give.

If you can get so defensive that a "Christmas Story" movie quote can get you so fired up your ready to compare “you’ll shoot your eye out kid” to you ready to kill someone by shooting them in the head with a firearm you pry don't even know how to clean, let alone aim, I can’t argue rational solutions.

Go for it Toad. Yee Ha to Miss Kitty too.

I see ALPA not only motivates and manipulates the company, but obviously the pilots in it’s masses as well.

Fortify yourselves, whatever makes you happy. The day you get a gun, is the day I change my career. I won't have obviously emotional persons such as yourself ready to shoot the next drunk that falls into a crew door.

Your obvious heated response to a rational argument solidifies my stance tenfold.

Good luck cowboy.

[Toad]

Yeah, I don't know how to clean a gun.

Yeah, qualifying as Expert six years in a row underlines the fact that I don't know how to aim.

Yeah, Creamo, the ALPA guys just dreamed all that stuff up. They aren't actually pilots themselves and they don't ever ask the rest of us what we want or need.

Yeah, "obviously heated". That's me. Don't like my posts without the smilies, do you? Get used to it; you don't deserve any smilies for this thread.

I'm sooo.....emotional. But then I'm not the one talking career change am I?

You can dish it old chum, but you can't take it. The green-eyed monster of jealousy is just eating your guts out, isn't it?

You probably do need a career change.

[Creamo]

Keep Editing your post all you want Toad. Your rationalizing that doctors killed more people last year than airline pilots confirms how absurd your argument that pilots have the need and responsibility to carry and use firearms responsible. That’s so ridiculous. Have some respect for yourself.

As for you being a expert pistol marksman. Good for you. I bet that Hawaii flight F/O that was a nervous wreck when I asked her to dry motor a 757 engine for a O-ring leak check would have toejam her pants if I said “boo!” let alone asked her to fire a gun. I was patient and instructed her the procedure. Are these the ALPA members you want taking charge in a crisis? Someone who under an abnormal procedure can’t dry motor an engine?


And yes, maybe all the 15 year plus mechanics should change careers. This constant rhetoric by pilots like you with a imaginary jealousy pointed towards us is wearing thin.

I suppose you would you feel safer then with 3rd party contract maintenance, or first year mechanics signing off doors ready to fly off without bolts installed, or fires to start in your firearm equipped inescapable bunker? Since you don’t, ask your colleagues. I bet they aren’t on a flightsim gaming board wishing our skill demise when we state factual opinions on a matter such as this.

If your going to get pissy, be rational. It makes for a better argument to the ultimate solution.

[Apar1]

punt

[Toad]

Basically, Creamo, the part about cleaning a gun and my marksmanship qualifications merely highlighted the fact that YOU are the one generalizing about things you simply have no information about.

Doctors? You brought up how safe they make you feel compared to pilots. Check the malpractice suit records for wrongful death.
Again, you don't know what you are talking about.

Need and responsibility? Check the lineage of that clear back to the early days of Ship Captains. There is only one "Master" of any vessel. Take a wild guess at who had the key to the arms locker.

Yeah, I've heard your many stories of how you've saved the day on engine ground runs and motoring. I'm sure the public believes that your airline trains, line checks and certifies pilots that don't know how to start the engines on their aircraft. Thank the Diety that you are there to get those motors running so they can get away from the gate; sure as heck, mere pilots couldn't manage such a difficult task.

I haven't heard that all mechanics want to change careers. Most of ours are pretty happy after the last raise. Actually, I only hear one that continually whines about how he "don't get no respect". Wonder why that is, eh?

...and yeah.. I'm SURE it's the PILOTS who are jealous of the MECHANICS in your little world. Unfortunately, you've posted your anti-pilot bias and bile a few too many times here for anyone else to believe it.

As for me wishing the demise of skilled mechanics, I'll just refer you to my most recent comments on the subject in a different thread. In fact, pick any thread you like where I've posted on the topic. I've always said mechanics are underpaid and under-respected. It's here in the archives on this BBS several times, once very recently.

If anyone is destroying your profession it's the bitter members that can't get the green-eyed monster of jealousy off their back.

You can try to paint my profession as a bunch of wild-eyed, emotional cowboys all you like. The traveling public obviously doesn't believe it. When the chips are down, they see who and what we are. Sioux City. Aloha's "convertible" 737. The United 747 out of Hawaii with the blown out door. I'm guessing the CVR's of the four the terrorists downed may well provide further proof.

Day in, day out our industry provides the safest form of mass transportation in the history of mankind. Speaks pretty well of all involved, I think.

But you keep trying to convince people pilots are all incompetent and crazy if it makes you feel better.

[Creamo]

Ok, you can have your gun. You seem convinced.

Just don't ask for nickel plated with gold inscript. Thats tacky.

[Laika]

How about a man trap? ..If the pilot needs to take a pee he has to open the cockpit door move into the man trap (just a small room with a door at each end) and close it behind him, now he is able to unlock the door into the rest of the plane... only one door opens at a time so the cockpit can't be rushed...crew in the cockpit can see who is in the man trap (by CCD camera) and only they can open the door into the cockpit. If the plane is hijacked they should be able to lock down both doors (bullet proof?) and the cockpit crew should cut all coms to the rest of the plane and make for the nearest safe area for a landing. All the seat back phones are diverted to a ground based negotiation team who are the only contact the hijackers have, no way of getting thru to the cockpit crew anymore..... I like a lot of the ideas here, armed sky marshals etc, but don't think the airlines will spend the $$   ..... Its an idea based on a system I have to use at work ...

Laika

[Toad]

I believe I'll speak to my Union reps as probably 35,000+ other pilots are doing now. Then I'll let the Union do the negotiating with the government.

As for the rest of it, time to go fly and time to exit this thread as well.

I'm confident that the other readers can make their own accurate judgement as to which posters were rational or irrational, calm or <edit> emotional <end edit>, logical or illogical.

There's plenty of evidence.

[ 09-14-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]

[streakeagle]

Originally posted by Toad:
Need and responsibility? Check the lineage of that clear back to the early days of Ship Captains. There is only one "Master" of any vessel. Take a wild guess at who had the key to the arms locker.

Toad,

I served 8 years in the Navy, 6 and a half were sea duty on two submarines. I can assure you that the captain of the ship does not have the key to the guns. Usually there are two keys: one in a safe that only the weapons officer has access to and one on a lanyard around an enlisted man's neck.

My second sub, USS Dolphin, had no torpedo tubes since it was only a small research sub. So, we had no torpedomen on board. As the next closest division in the weapons department, sonar was responsible for the gun locker and I (a lowly E-6) wore the gun locker key   The funny part was everyone knew I was a bit of a gun fanatic, but the captain found that to be a good quality for both maintenance and markmanship perspectives. Partially on topic for this post: I have a concealed carry permit and carry my 0.45 whenever it is legal. I am used to having it and feel a bit "naked" when I fly without it. If I can be trusted to walk around the general population fully armed (for the benefit of everyone's safety and security), why can't I be trusted to do the same on board an airplane? The vast majority of citizens with concealed carry permits would provide a free source of "sky marshals". My only fault with the concealed carry permit is that only a minimum of training and certification is required, so these would very much be amateurs who would make some costly mistakes. A risk I would be willing to take given the overall benefits (much the same risk any state takes by allowing concealed carry).

[lazs1]

creamo... the doors need to be strengthened.  And we do need armed sky marshaslls so that the  terrorists are not the only armed people on board.   I would have no problem with off duty police or concealed carry permit people having their firearms on them with approved ammo.  Imagine if while those brave people on the penn flight were vooting and planning on how and who was gonna get stabbed first... A passenger said  "well, how bout I just shoot em?".   I can find no case of any concealed carry permit holder involved in a "cowboy" action maybe you can?

I don't think your plan will work creamo.   Uh, What was that plan exactly?

If you are frightened that perhaps a pilot or navigator who is involved in a traininfg program, has a firearm... behind a terrorist resistant door... Yet, you are perfectly willing to board an aircraft in which the only people with weapons is guarenteed to be the bad guy....   You are naive or a woman...

Another place that is guarenteed to have everyone disarmed except the bad guys is... schoolyards.   We all know how well that works out!   Fortunately tho in that case... someone with a gun shows up and stops it... eventually... Usually with only a couple dozen casualties.  With an airliner tho... once the wheels leave the ground...  sorry bud... ur on ur own... and with no tools and no chance of help arriving.

Your fear of an inatimate objects is making u irrational.

Toad is right... you are wrong.  you sound as stupid as the "sleeping gas guy".
lazs

[SOB]

Lasz, there's every indication that there are terrorists who set themselves up in this country and even become part of communities.  If a conceiled weapons permits were all that was required to carry handguns on an airliner, it's a good bet that these guys would have found ways to get them.

I like the idea of having Sky Marshalls, and would be happy to pay the extra in my airline tickets.  But pilots carrying guns?  I'm sorry, but being a pilot in no way qualifies you to handle a firearm in a situation where you have to stay calm and be willing to use deadly force.  Seal off the cockpit, but leave the weapons in the hands of professionals.  If the pilots need a toejamter, then steal the one from First Class and make it accessible only to the pilots.


SOB

[Creamo]

Oh man…OK Laz. My plan was to discuss the solutions to the hijacking with answers that were more easily feasible. And in the case of cockpit doors, for guys like you, to help explain at least with some technical reasons why it's not such a simple solution to just fortify the crew in the flight deck. You seem miffed, so I guess that didn't work.


As far as the gun issue, like I said, they need sky marshals, or equip the crew with tazers/pepper spray, not .357's. It got way out of hand in the thread that my opinion is all jealousy based blah,blah,blah. I think I embarrassed someone and he tweaked out. Whatever. Shooting off guns in airplanes is a no-no, period.

So here, do this simple test. Look around at all the people you work with, and imagine them armed with a fully loaded pistol. Really, think about it. I did, it just seemed foolish. I’d trust maybe 1 out of 10. Do you honestly believe the pilots, or any other work group look around and see anything different? That’s not naïve, and for the life of me can’t see how you put logic to that making me a woman. –yikes- Again, police officers have years of training. Expecting a crew member to have these qualifications is not the answer. I don’t think that’s as far fetched as the “gas guy” or whomever. Hijacker holds a pocket knife at F/A, she shoots pepper spray in his eyes, drop the blind bastard off at the nearest airport, done.

Besides, I argued before that the real solution is within the government itself. A little preventative terrorist campaign makes these issues mute because there aren’t bad guys with elaborate plans hijacking planes.


So I am wrong, so what. You can’t sue me. It's not about being right or wrong. It's all opinion anyways.

[Maverick]

Creamo,

You've taken heat in this thread and some was justified. You asked for a cop’s view about lethal force so here it is.

You mentioned "less than lethal" force measures. From street experience I have to tell you that against a DETERMINED attacker they are less than effective. Tasers do not stop someone who is on heavy doses of stimulants or psychotic. They are also childishly easy to defeat. A taser has to make CLOSE contact with the flesh of the attacker. A simple shield will stop them entirely. You have carry on luggage on board. A suit bag will do nicely here.

Pepper spray or mace has an area effect. In my experience it has as much chance to work on the person using it as the person being sprayed. Remember you are in a closed environment. Which way is the airflow going? Pilot crew WILL be hit with it as well. It WILL make it difficult to see where you are going and the instruments as well.

Hand to hand. This is ridiculous. A terrorist with a knife will likely kill or severely main at least one defender. Not all pilot crew are of a size to make the outcome of a fistfight decisive. It takes FAR more time to make a person proficient in hand to hand combat than in almost any weapon. Besides the training involved only the recipient of the training will be able to determine if they have the measure needed to actually close and give combat. The time they find out will be at the crisis point.

I agree with pilots having a weapon. I feel it should be the senior officers position (Captain if you will) to maintain it. By the time they make that option available I would expect the airline to provide several hours of training and a mandatory qualification in the weapon. It really shouldn't take too long, as we will not be talking about long range shooting.

The qualification should be MANDATORY. The ranges for qualification should also be about the same for Police, say about 25 yards for the long-range portion. The key item is the training as to WHEN to shoot. Obviously it is going to be a last ditch situation. The conditions will likely have to be when the cockpit door is being broached. The controls of the plane will have to be maintained by crew, period, no exceptions and no surrender any more.

There, you have my analysis of the situation you and Toad were arguing about.

Mav

PS there are NO perfect solutions to this situation, only compromises.