Author Topic: Sky Marshal program..  (Read 5398 times)

Offline Toad

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Sky Marshal program..
« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2001, 02:25:00 PM »
I am all in favor of the "sky marshal" program. Let that be clear from the outset.

Just realize what you are asking for. My airline is primarily two pilot aircraft with maybe 100 three-seaters left that require about 700 Flight Engineers.

Bottom line is we need ~ 9000 pilots to man our schedule using roughly 600 aircraft (if they were all two-seaters).

OK, divide by half if you are going to put just ONE SkyMarshal on board (I think 2 is better). Now you are at 4500 SM's.

Further assume the SkyMarshal "Union" will not get duty rigs quite as good as the pilots have... more on the order of the Flight Attendants. So they won't need quite as many... maybe 3500 but more realistically about 4000.

Now multiply that by at least 4 airlines our size. There's 16,000 SM's.

Now the next 6 airlines in size probably account for 2-3 "major" airlines. So add another 8-12,000.

To cover every flight on the "top 10 airlines" you're going to need somewhere around 25,000-30,000 SkyMarshals. You want TWO on board? 50,000 to 60,000. We're just talking the top 10 here...

Of course, this is just a ballpark, "figured on the napkin" number. Could be smaller or larger but nonetheless, it's going to be a LOT of SM's. And that is just "Field Agents", guys on the plane... who knows how many "support personnel"... like trainers and schedulers and office workers...

Here's a data point: In late 1998, the FBI had 28,000 employees--11,500 Special Agents and 16,500 support personnel.

Like I said, I support the SkyMarshal program. Let's all just be clear on what we're asking for and what we're likely to get.

You want a faster response? Allow Cockpit Crew to carry. We already come to training every year, sometimes twice a year. Just add a day or two for "Sky Marshal" refresher courses.

Don't trust a pilot with a gun? But you'll trust him to hand fly an approach and landing with crosswinds so high it's beyond autopilot limits for landing but still within the airplane certification, right?

Who do you want to trust, the Sky Marshal that isn't there because they wouldn't fund him or hasn't been trained yet... or the guy who has devoted his life to being responsible for his passengers, crew and aircraft?

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline -ammo-

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Sky Marshal program..
« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2001, 02:36:00 PM »
ahh missed that thunder :)

I certainly think that A "sky marshal" program or some other measure is needed. I fly too much ( I have no option) and I feel very vulnerable. I always had those fears but they were subsided in the back of my mind. Now with it painted so fresh in our minds...I can only hope that some of these Airlines and the US government ( ugh I hate the thought of more Government) will be involved in instituting something. There will be some huge changes in this industry, no doubt about that, I just hope they are meaningful.
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Offline Hooligan

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Sky Marshal program..
« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2001, 02:38:00 PM »
Arming and training flight crew personal is a good idea IMO.

As far as to what this costs:  As a country we are going to be spending billions of dollars dealing with this.  Lets hope that most of that money is spent on effective measures like sky marshalls and not on useless and symbolic measures.

Hooligan

Offline lazs1

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« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2001, 02:44:00 PM »
toad... i agree.   First of all, we don't need every single flight covered but even 90% would be a lot of money.

As I said... I'm not a big government guy.   I do think that the government should maintain an army.   I believe that terrorism is an attack on the nation and that as such, the sky marshalls should be part of the army in the war on terrorism.   Look at all the worthless BATF goons we got floatin around that nobody wants or needs.   Everything they do is covered by some other agency.  

I think sky marshalls are a good value for my military tax buck.  bet more than a few of our countrymen would agree.


oh... plus, let's not forget.... there is NO other viable solution short of not allowing the planes to take off.  
lazs

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: lazs1 ]

highflyer

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Sky Marshal program..
« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2001, 02:57:00 PM »
I agree with toad, on this .. I think Pilots SHOULD most definatly be able to carry weapons.

I really think that the Gas Idea however with a completey seperate compartment from the Crew is definatly the way to go though..

I would rather see someone fall down and hurt them selves as a result of the gas.

I think its better than the alternative.

Possibly a sky marshal that has gas mask on him so he can maintain control of the situation while the others are knocked out so to say.

I think that this would be a VERY good time that the pilots could quickly find somewhere to land and to then have the proper authorites.

I really think that the talk of all this money and shortages of people are sadening.

I actually find it Disgusting to hear that Currently the curbside luggage issue is only being started during this time of crisis, but things shoul return to normal eventually.

IM SORRY but "NORMAL" is what got us in this situation.

I keep hearing of Isreal's Security Ideals and practices, They sound like they are on top of thier SH^$. WHY shouldnt WE be?

Not to say I can speak from experience though. I hav never seen/experienced Isreali procedures.

anyway.. Definatly GOOD ideas here.. LETS not simply KEEP them ideas...

I Hope that most agree that NOW we should never become Complacent to Air travel, or Expect that NOthing should be wrong/everythings A-Okay.

Lets implement these Ideas.. and Get used to the inconvenience.. ITS FOR OUR SAFTEY!

<S>

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2001, 04:01:00 PM »
Just a note here. Watching CNN, Mineta has called for Delta Force troops to be used as Sky Marshalls. (I forget if Mineta is in charge of FAA or NTSB)

This is a nice FAST way to get some highly trained people on board but when you think of the law enforcemenet angle, won't work.
 1. It violates current law regarding military in civilian law enforcement.

2. These guys are rather easy to detect. They have distinctive haircuts and mannerisms. They won't be able to "blend in" with the passengers. To be effective they must be able to ambush the terrorists and put them down fast with minimum time / action. If they can be spotted easily they will be the ones ambushed first.

Having said all that I still think this is the only realistic way to fight a determined terrorist and keep them from using the plane as a weapon. The fight should be over BEFORE the terrorist gets to the cockpit.

Toad, I agree with you as far as arming the pilot crew is concerned. Both pilots SHOULD be highly trained in use of deadly force. The policy on aircrew usage of force will have to be reviewed. The crew will have to be PREPARED to USE the force when needed. Big item here. Just arming pilot won't elp if they don't take this seriously. It may also lead to an ambush of flight crew by terrorist who are prepared to fly themselves as in Tuesdays situation. I think it's far better the crew have the tools needed to at least fight back.

I think the days of "cooperate with the terrorist" are over.

Mav
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Offline vmfRazor

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Sky Marshal program..
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2001, 06:07:00 PM »
Well Lazs I wasn't saying that I beleived all guns should be taken away that is ludicrous. I am not in favor of gun control of any means. And I agree with a firearm stopping crime. But in an airplane at 30K is alot different than in you're front yard.

 As somebody pointed out in another post the rules for hijacking have changed. Up to this point most of the time they flew the plane around until their demands were met then released the hostages. That is the reasoning behind not fighting them in the air. But now the nutballs have it in their mind to crash into buildings.

I have no doubt that the other 3 planes would have met with the same resistance that the Penn. one did if the crews and passengers knew what their fate would be. Those on the flight had the info and realised they were doomed, so putting up a fight was their only option.

 Another problem with arms on the airplanes are what if the hijackers don't have them to begin with, disable the marshal and now they do have a weapon. My brother is a corrections officer, and they aren't allowed to have weapons because of the possibility of a prisoner getting it. He is a deputy sherrif but his badge and nametag are sewn on patches they can't even have those made of metal.

Like I said originally, I am not against this. But these are valid points in my mind, and need to be addressed before they start implementing it. Just throwing marshalls on planes is not the answer IMO. The security on the ground does need to be stepped up big time. I heard them say that the people working the food counters in airports made more money than the security officers at the xray machines and had more training. That is the Biggest problem of all. The quality of the people responsible is not high enough. And a job like that is extremely easy to get Jaded and not pay attention. They need to rotate these people around to different jobs during their shift so their concentration is not dulled.

There is no wonder cure for everything that is wrong. The maoney aspect will be tough to overcome, but hopefully the govt. will force that issue.

Razor

Offline Toad

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« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2001, 09:50:00 PM »
Mav,

For a fast response, give me a double bar to prevent/delay the unauthorized entry into the cockpit and let us pack a Glock full of Glazers.

It's a start. Not the answer, but a start.

With what has happened, no one will enter the cockpit unauthorized anymore.

They may take it out on the pax but there won't be anymore crashing into buildings.

Once its on the ground, the local SWAT team can deal with them.

We have got to remove their capability to commandeer an aircraft; the sooner the better.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Creamo

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« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2001, 09:51:00 PM »
I apologize for punting this, but I just gotta point out how out of hand this is getting when people think pilots should carry guns.

I’m not sure what would scare me more than being on a flight with pilots that have a loaded weapon. Several images come to mind, some horrible, some almost comical. None that make any sense to arm these guys.

1.   Terrorist goes onto plane unarmed. Grabs flight attendant and jams a knife from 1st class (they have them on board) into her jugular… skip the details.  A pilot trained 1 or 2 days a year Toad? comes out with a gun to potentially shoot someone, blow a whole in the aircraft causing catastrophic  decompression, or being ambushed by another terrorist. Now the terrorist has a gun, which he would have no access to before.
2.   Pilot accidentally discharges weapon in cockpit. God knows it’s possible. The outcome could be as simple as a hole in the floor, or a badly damaged avionics display, or as mentioned above, fatal decompression. I know for a fact accidental discharge is possible. A cop from my home town shot himself in the ass, it happens. Another one shot the mirror in his bedroom practicing quick draws… heh, good lord.


Pilots are regarded as cowboys enough. I shiver thinking they would come marching down a jet bridge like Marshal Dillan, and have the ability to really screw up with a firearm. I think having a trained professional sky marshal may be feasible, but I highly doubt it will happen on domestic flights. Maybe at first, but the money thing… I’d guess no in the long term.

I’d rather see tighter security in the airports themselves. I even thought pepper spray in a grab n go, or sealed kit a flight attendant could open in a emergency would be sufficient to really ruin a hijackers day. In a closed compartment, they would be blinded till they could be subdued. Hey, mail carriers have them, seems like just about anyone could point and spray it. It would end a knife fight in a hurry. That toejam is mean.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2001, 10:53:00 PM »
Creamo, the day of the pilot coming out of the cockpit in the event of ANY pax disturbance is over.

I think sooner or later some F/A's and Pax are unfortunately going to have to die proving this to the terrorist community.

Cockpit doors are going to be beefed up, no question.

So, I believe the new policy is going to be get it down as fast as you can at the first sign of trouble. Do NOT leave the cockpit. Use any means necessary to prevent unauthorized entry into the cockpit.

I'm sure you like to characterize the pilots as Cowboys. You've shown you have a hard-on for pilots in general many, many times on this board.

Bottom line is the Pax put their lives in our hands everytime they step aboard. I think we've earned their respect as professionals, if not yours.

Tell me this... how would the Pennsylvania flight have turned out if the pilots had a truly strong cockpit door, a policy not to leave the cockpit no matter what and a gun to deal with anyone that did get through?

Who knows, those simple steps might have been enough to stop one or more of the other three as well.

It'll be YEARS before the SkyMarshal program gets up to even 20% flight coverage; you know it, too.

2 Days a year? Make it 4.. make it 10.. it's still faster and cheaper than waiting for SkyMarshals. You might have noticed.. there's a war on and we just lost the opening round.

Besides, pilots, by and large start out as sons of the lower and middle classes. Who do you think joins the military any way? Who else pays their way up through the civilian ranks flying checks around the country at midnight in a clapped-out Cherokee 6? Not the sons of the Rockefellers.

I'll wager over 50% of the guys I fly with are hunters... a lower and middle class sport for the most part in America. Familarity with guns isn't unusual, it's common. The military guys all qualified at some time or another, usually with pistol and rifle. Hell, I just flew with a guy that was on the USAF rifle team and still competes Nationally.

You can have your little fantasy of rootin-tooting Cowboy pilots popping off a few rounds accidentally but it's a fantasy and you know it. I flew with guys that had guns in their flight kit the first 5 years I was with the majors. Lots of Captains had them...never heard of a single accidental discharge.

We're professionals.. just like you.

If I impugned the integrity and professionalism of aircraft mechanics the way you routinely do with respect to pilots you'd be major league pissed.

It's time you admitted it's all rooted in jealousy and got the fork over it. You made your choice... now live with it without crying about it. Or, better yet, do something to change it.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Creamo

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« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2001, 11:17:00 PM »
Ok, fair enough. Arm doctors as well. I trust them way more with my life than a pilot.

Rant about whatever, you cowboys need to leave the gun shooting to trained personell, military or local law enforcment.

You'll shoot your eye out kid!

Offline Glasses

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« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2001, 12:15:00 AM »
I really resent that Creamo you being an amazinhunk more than usual. Maybe not guns are neccesary inside the cockpit(which I do aprove of them having guns). But buying 5 more mins to land an aircraft in harm even if a couple of passengers and crew are killed,with strengthening cockpits.

 I do agree passengers WILL NOT stand again for this toejam we won't be cooperative anymore, you have a bomb well diddly you you better blow us up,you have a knife we have the whole aircraft to land on your bellybutton and send it to Allah shrink rapped and cut in little pieces.

 If it means hiking the prices so be it 10, 15, 30, a 100 more for a ticket is not a bother for many American citizens,the industry will be hit(me being somewhat affected also as a general aviation pilot).

Our infastructure is at stake, our sense of security is at stake, our way of living is at stake . I consider my self a right wing nut but this has been over the top this has affected me profoundly I cannot put more into words without hurting any particular group what has just happened.

Regardig the intelligence community they will need to pump more money into them authorize assasinations and major covert operations were American lives might be lost,and I think most of us are willing to take the sacrfice.

Offline Thunder

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« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2001, 01:40:00 AM »
The Damned Airline suits have got the mechanics,flight crews and pilots fighting between themselves purposely. The public knows what they are doing, they're just screwing with the unions and they love this crap. Pay scale or what ever.. the pilot in comand is and must be the pilot in command. To be in command.. keep EVERYONE OUT and don't even have a door between the cabin and the cockpit. WALL IT TOTALLY OFF! I really beleive this would have possibly averted the entire tragedy. They may have got a bomb on board but not used the plane as a bomb and a weapon of mass destruction. The key is finding ways to preserve the command of the aircraft.
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Offline Creamo

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« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2001, 01:51:00 AM »
I’m not trying to be a salamander in this matter Glasses. I do take it serious, and only make a reference in jest when the solutions get so absurd.  Enough to think that pilots as professionals are automatically qualified to carry weapons as suggested? That’s irrational. I know it sounds feasible to many, but it just so far from a probable solution, I spoke against it. To dispel the grief and hard feelings I unintentionally caused Toad, I made a ref. to a popular movie at an attempt to mellow the banter. That’s being civil, and an effort to not make a mockery of this serious situation. Interpret it as you will, I can’t change that.

Any references to the airlines being hesitant to make changes in safety are a fact. Not that they are negligent in every way mind you. It’s just stark reality that you can’t have 100% safe air travel. With unlimited resources, close, but reality and economics make it quite clear that it just can’t be, don’t blame me for this fact. WERE the flying public prepared to pay ticket prices 100% increased prior to this horrid event? Absolutely not. Granted, this is before this indescribable event. I’m still in shock. It’s almost hard to believe. I am assured changes will be made, but the point to be taken is it will have to come from our Government, as in most cases there is just to fine a line in airlines economics and business competition to just up and implement vast changes that could cost billions on their own. I won’t reference past cases of air disasters. It’s too involved.  

The flying public may indeed now be more willing to see that airline travel should be as safe as possible, a expensive luxury if you will, as it was years ago, and pay accordingly. I would welcome this change as much or more than any casual reader here.

Plus it’s my opinion only that these tragic events are from a breakdown in government/military intelligence, not by airline cockpit procedures. Hence, I find the majority to the solutions posted to these problems to come from other than the airlines themselves.

There have been military cuts since the Clinton Administration. I’m all for new teachers and health care, but I think as you look as Tuesday’s horrible events unfolded, protecting our country takes precedence over EVERYTHING. You have 50 people planning something like this, and you not have not 1 leak of it? The US government had no clue. If the funding for intelligence is a priority and in place, this is still a movie. If we had taken terrorists as a enemy from the start, and didn’t mix in political rhetoric, striking these bastards without political consequence considered, this is still a fictional  movie. I blame lack of political savvy to wipe out our enemies before the unthinkable.

So lets look at why I’m critical of some of the suggestions posted.

If we had strengthened cockpit doors, I can’t see much change. For instance, a 737 door on the normal lock mode where the knob won’t turn take takes 10 lbs of pressure to over come. Keeps people out from making a error from thinking it’s the bathroom door, that’s inches away. When it’s electronically locked, it takes 250lbs of force to over come it. Granted, if I ran down the aisle, I could smash in. So lets reinforce it to say 750 lbs. Now in a much more probable scenario, a normal cockpit crewmember is basically trapped in an emergency. A rescue crewmember is about as helpless opening it at that force. And STILL, you have blow out panels that must be installed to relief pressure in again, a more probable situation, as rapid decompression. 2 terrorists could pry still overcome this by blunt force, or exploit the blow out doors to harm the crew. Should we strengthen it more? I for the life of me can’t find a solution in that. There’s the head level blowout door that can be easily compromised, and safety of the crew to consider. It’s a safety related issue to the aircraft in NORMAL service. I welcome solutions to this. I just can’t find any.

As far as arming the crew, can any military professional, or peace officer please explain how important firearms are, and the years of training they go through making them responsible enough to effectively carry and use them? I consider police officers to be one of the most important and demanding professions period. I always thought hotshot pilots were considered “cowboys” in the military. If it’s a wrong reference, and was surely taken out of context. Pinning a firearm on them because they in fact care for their crew, passengers, aircraft, and that they are professionals in their field is still in my opinion, ridiculous. I respect them without hesitation, for the job they do day in and day out. They have to protect themselves, but where do you draw the line? Again, I see a pepper spray way more probable to a solution of self-defense. I don’t find that far fetched at all. Blinded terrorist can’t fly a plane, or have a knife fight. Do you find this easily implemented defense wrong? I’m more in tune to random sky marshals, although we have discussed the problems in manpower, cost, recognition, which would cause them to be the first targets, and how to implement them.

I know you, as many are deeply affected and saddened by this tragedy. When I pull into work, there are flowers anonymous locals have put on our AA company sign. It damn near brings you to tears. My job and livelihood by my company’s loss will certainly be affected in loss of our AA family,  wage concessions, work shutdowns, and the industry crisis sure to come.

I don’t know how you paying more for a gallon of gas for your 150 makes you so much more insightful to call me an amazinhunk, but I’m open to intelligent discussion on solutions.

Offline Creamo

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« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2001, 01:52:00 AM »
I agree Thunder, I just can't find a solution to how we can make that barrier feasable. Wish I did, it would help immensley.