Question for Law Enforcement Guys...

[Seagoon]

Hi All,

Saw something today that really disturbed me, perhaps unduly. Wanted to get the opinion of the Law Enforcement affiliated members of the BB on it.

Traveling back from Charlotte, I stopped at a stop light at a four way intersection.

To my left on the intersecting street, just short of the light I noticed that a Sheriff's cruiser had just pulled over a sedan with two males in it.

                 + <----- I was here
                 ^
                  Cop car behind sedan

The door of the cop car opened and out stepped a little female deputy, about the size that when she puts on her utility belt, her weight is doubled. I didn't think much of it till I saw her reach down and try to release the holster catch on her pistol as she was walking up to the car. She fumbled it and had to stop and look down to her side to get it released. It was at this point I noticed how nervous she was (and that she was a lefty). After she had the catch off, she kept it holstered, but wrapped her hand around the grip and kept walking up to the car. At this point I started thinking, "they get out of the car and she is set to go only to deadly force, and here I am stuck directly in her line of fire."

Literally, had she opened fire, she would have either hit cars coming through the intersection towards her to the left, or more likely my car or the minivan behind me as we were almost directly behind the pulled up car if fired at from her angle. Once she was at the window of the stopped car, the backstop on the other side became school. Even better.

Lets just say I was happy to see license and registration come through the window, and happier still to drive away.

My questions are these:

1) Is no care taken regarding where you stop a car? It would have made infinitely more sense for her to follow the vehicle through the intersection and stop it further down the other road. There were just fields down there.

2) Should a 95 lbs. female deputy be stopping a car with two large males by herself? Why not call in backup first?

Was this a good stop?

- SEAGOON

[Heretic]

I'm not a police officer first of all.

Heres my take on it.   She should of pulled the car over near those open fields you mentioned and not at the intersection.


Her sidearm is the equalizing force between the 95lb female cop and the large male driver and passanger.    Not too many people will argue with a cop that has her/his hand on the pistol grips.


You saw her struggling with her catch release on her holster.  Maybe she is a brand spanking new rookie with a brand new holster?    Evidently she was rather nervous.    

I was pulled over before on a very busy road and the highway patrol officer asked me politely if I would drive up the road to a church parking lot so we would not impede any other drivers.
I complied of course.


I chalk up your observations to a new rookie nervous at a traffic stop.   She made the wrong choice but the situation worked out in her favor.    Why?   Shes armed.      Bad choice for a pullover at an intersection tho.

[Chairboy]

Seagoon,

I'm not a police officer either, but I have some feedback that I believe to be true based on past conversations I've had with law enforcement.

1. Every traffic stop is an unknown, and can turn bad fast.  Any cop (or pilot) who doesn't have a healthy dose of nerves can get into trouble fast and wake up dead.  I see a correlation between flying and the law here.

2. She has training and equipment that are equalizers to two big guys.  

I perceive (this isn't an accusation, just saying what it looks like) thinly veiled sexism.  Let her do her job, and respectfully, save your 'concern' for someone who requests it.  Your attention is most likely unwelcome and an insult to her hard work to work her way to where she is now.  

Modern law enforcement is a tough business, and you can't just waltz into the job.  To get the badge these days, you have to prove some serious competency, and the grandfatherly concern of a gentleman who might (and this doesn't necessarily apply to you) think that a woman's place is back in the kitchen where, as God directs, she is subservient to his wishes as head of the household and raises the children.

I don't mean to suggest that this represents your views, but it is certainly a common one from people who have started with some of the same observations you made.

[Shuckins]

Chairboy,

I couldn't disagree more.  

Barrett Tillman has made the statement that, in terms of women's rights, the Navy is the most thoroughly politicized branch of the military.

The same might be said for many police and fire departments.  Not to downplay the female officers' work in attaining her position, but to my mind it is doubtful her training would prepare her for the physical challenge of tackling two grown, 200 pound males, bent on physical violence.

I know a number of people who work in the Arkansas State Penal System and they all have similar opinions of female guards physical abilities.  In altercations with violent felons the females invariably back away from the situation and let the male guards handle it, even if the male guards are outnumbered.  Given the reality of that situation, what does that say about the usefulness of female guards in a male prison?  Or about the system that okays them for such duty?

Good intentions aside, there are many instances in which adopting politically correct stances can prove to be dangerous to the people they are meant to benefit.  Oh sure, there are some women who can pick up a refrigerator.  But how many of them have you met during your life?  

I bet that the number is distressingly low.

Regards, Shuckins

[Tarmac]

Location:  Sure, you give some consideration to the location that you fire up your lights.  You generally try to avoid intersections and such, mostly for your safety as you don't want to be hit by a car.  As far as the school, I'd only consider that if it were a stop that I was already expecting to go south.  In which case I might have already called for a slow-rolled backup.
     That being said, people do some retarded things when the lights fire up behind them.  Some will drive for a half mile looking for a place to stop, others will stop in the center turn lane of a 5 lane road, others will slam on the brakes wherever they are, hop curbs, or even pull into the dark alleys between businesses.     You can influence where the stop occurs, but only the other driver controls where he actually stops.  

Holster: Cops get new holsters as the newest thing comes out.  Maybe she had just received a new one and it wasn't broken in, or muscle memory had told her to draw like she would have with her old one.  Maybe she was just having a fumblefingered moment.   Could be a million explanations.  Whether its a mistake or lack of training or whatever, hopefully she'll take it home that night and practice until it comes out easier.  

Backup:  Nobody wants to be the guy who calls for backup every time he makes a stop.  It's completely up to her, and she's taking into account a million factors that are too numerous to list.  

95 pound cops:  Sure, they don't want to get in a fight.  I'm not a heavy guy by any means -- I'm only 5'10" and 160 lbs, and I wouldn't let some 6'2" 300 pound 40 year old tell me that I'm too small to do the job unless he's a professional bodybuilder himself.  Physical size is not even 1% of the job, and people who don't have it can generally use tactics, equipment, and their noggins to avoid a fight they can't win.

[GtoRA2]

I have asked every cop I have had the chance to talk to about traffic stops and if they mind if you keep driving, (with some kind of acknowledgment) that you saw them to a safer place, IE highway patrol puts his lights on behind me, I waved, and drove to the next exit and pulled into a parking lot. The Guys I asked always said they prefer that cause being on the side of a busy street is a good way to get hit.


Local cops have started to leave half their car in the road, so if something gets hit its the car and not them, but this blocks trafic.


185 cop could have trouble with two big guys. a 95 pound one is going to have more, you can have all the training in the world and a big mean pissed off guy can ruin your day.


A smaller person is going to have more trouble as a cop. They wont intimidate as much, they will need to use more personal force then the a bigger cop. They may have to resort to deadly force much faster.



should a 95 pound fire fighter who cant carry a hose up the ladder or a person down be on the job?

[ASTAC]

Originally posted by GtoRA2



Local cops have started to leave half their car in the road, so if something gets hit its the car and not them, but this blocks trafic.


 

Actually, leaving the car blocking like they do, is a liability thing. Once they stop you they are responsible for you and your vehicle. Having worked a military police department this is what we are taught to do to prevent the driver's car from being hit. Seems stupid but a bet some sleezy lawyers have managed to win lawsuits because someone's car was damaged while they were pulled over.

[GtoRA2]

Originally posted by ASTAC
Actually, leaving the car blocking like they do, is a liability thing. Once they stop you they are responsible for you and your vehicle. Having worked a military police department this is what we are taught to do to prevent the driver's car from being hit. Seems stupid but a bet some sleezy lawyers have managed to win lawsuits because someone's car was damaged while they were pulled over.

Its anoying when they do it an it blocks trafic, it would make more sense for them to get on the load speaker and tell the dimwit to pull over into the parking lot that is 20 feet further up the street.


Still if it keeps the person care from being hit it protects them too.

[Saurdaukar]

Originally posted by Seagoon

Was this a good stop?

 

My sister is a 5'7" 120 lbs cop.

No, it was not.

If she felt the stop was high risk enough, she should have called for another cruiser.

[Seagoon]

Originally posted by Chairboy
I perceive (this isn't an accusation, just saying what it looks like) thinly veiled sexism.  Let her do her job, and respectfully, save your 'concern' for someone who requests it.  Your attention is most likely unwelcome and an insult to her hard work to work her way to where she is now.  

Chairboy,

No, actually I was more concerned about being the back-stop for a roadside shoot-out than who was doing the shooting. I used to shoot at a NJ firearms range frequented by local police, many of whom came in to practice prior to qualifying. Some of the worst shooting I've ever seen in my life (and I was an instructor for a University rifle and pistol club in the UK, so I've seen some baaaad shooting) was done by those guys. Including one time when  one of the two guys next to me accidently discharged his weapon through the upper wall of the booth and into the ceiling above me. I know that there are probably a lot of local police who are sharpshooters, but too few of the ones I've encountered could hit the 10 ring in a non-threatening situation in a firing range.

So my only assessment was, she fires, and those rounds are coming this way. Oh joy.

But if you want to discuss the "thinly veiled sexism" angle. I'm not the guy to do it, but I do know a few who would probably love to take it up with you. I spent about 45 minutes a few Sundays ago as guys in SF and the regular army swapped "women in the Army" horror stories. For instance, one ex-D.I. told of how the commandant had instructed all of them that the men would carry the women's packs in addition to their own because his school was going to a 100% graduation rate for the women. There were more gripes than I care to go into, but these guys are all veterans, officers and enlisted, all with combat deployments (with one exception), and overall their impression is that as far as the Army is concerned one woman does not equal one man. If you want to tell them they are a bunch of backwards sexists who need to get with our more enlightened times, then I'll let you be the one to do it because somehow I wouldn't personally feel qualified to do so...

- SEAGOON

[AdmRose]

Originally posted by Seagoon
Chairboy,

No, actually I was more concerned about being the back-stop for a roadside shoot-out than who was doing the shooting. I used to shoot at a NJ firearms range frequented by local police, many of whom came in to practice prior to qualifying. Some of the worst shooting I've ever seen in my life (and I was an instructor for a University rifle and pistol club in the UK, so I've seen some baaaad shooting) was done by those guys. Including one time when  one of the two guys next to me accidently discharged his weapon through the upper wall of the booth and into the ceiling above me. I know that there are probably a lot of local police who are sharpshooters, but too few of the ones I've encountered could hit the 10 ring in a non-threatening situation in a firing range.

So my only assessment was, she fires, and those rounds are coming this way. Oh joy.

But if you want to discuss the "thinly veiled sexism" angle. I'm not the guy to do it, but I do know a few who would probably love to take it up with you. I spent about 45 minutes a few Sundays ago as guys in SF and the regular army swapped "women in the Army" horror stories. For instance, one ex-D.I. told of how the commandant had instructed all of them that the men would carry the women's packs in addition to their own because his school was going to a 100% graduation rate for the women. There were more gripes than I care to go into, but these guys are all veterans, officers and enlisted, all with combat deployments (with one exception), and overall their impression is that as far as the Army is concerned one woman does not equal one man. If you want to tell them they are a bunch of backwards sexists who need to get with our more enlightened times, then I'll let you be the one to do it because somehow I wouldn't personally feel qualified to do so...

- SEAGOON

With my experience in basic, one woman equals one man. The only thing different are the P.T. requirements and those are due to biological factors not favoritism.

[StarOfAfrica2]

Size and/or gender of the officer doesnt matter much on something like a traffic stop in town like that.  If they were out in the middle of nowhere, maybe.  Intimidation does factor in when there's no one else around to see what happens.  Also, as Tarmac said, there could be alot of reasons why she had trouble with the holster.  In competitions you learn real quick how important it is to be comfortable with the rig  you use.  Cops dont have much in the way of options, but it makes it all the more important that they become familiar with every inch of that belt and train their muscle memory.  She was probably new, given your description, but I try not to assume either way.  No matter how routine this might have been, adrenaline almost always kicks in when you are confronting someone, no matter how minor the infraction.  Different people react to the adrenaline rush in different ways.

As for her approach to the car, and the surrounding area?  Well, all that stuff has to be processed fairly quickly, when other things are on your mind.  Without any actual fear that he might be dangerous, she did the right thing by keeping him in the car where his mobility is limited, and made the best of the situation.  She may never have noticed the school, and it may never have crossed her mind that a miss or ricochet could go that way.  It often doesnt occur to people who arent comfortable with guns or are inexperienced.  Some police officers are in these categories, right or wrong.  She had to focus on the situation in front of her, and make firm decisions one way or the other.  Showing distraction or indecision is a good way to turn an otherwise calm situation scary.  Either way, she did what she had to do and the guy left.  No matter if she was scared, new, freaked out, or high as a kite, and even if things werent ideal, I'd say it was handled as well as could be expected (of course I wasnt there, I didnt see it, and I know nothing of the situation except what you described).  The only way to know just how much of the scene had processed in her brain was to have it go bad and see how she reacted.  Thankfully, that didnt happen.

[Saurdaukar]

Originally posted by AdmRose
With my experience in basic, one woman equals one man. The only thing different are the P.T. requirements and those are due to biological factors not favoritism.

Agree for the most part... although the female platoons had higher attrition rates compared to the men due to what you mentioned - physical/biological inadequacies.

[AdmRose]

Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Agree for the most part... although the female platoons had higher attrition rates compared to the men due to what you mentioned - physical/biological inadequacies.

Well we had coed platoons, essentially a 3:1 ratio of male squads to female squads in a platoon. I would say that the biggest problem (that I saw, at least) for the females is attitude, not anything physical or biological.

[Seagoon]

Hi All,

One last thought, I asked because never having been a police officer or done a traffic stop, to tell the truth, I didn't know. My desire was simply get a take on it from the folks here who had.

The thing most disturbing to me was simply that I had always drilled into the lads and ladies I was training the cardinal rule: "Before you fire be sure you know where every round is going to stop, because you can never, ever, take it back."  

The same thing was true of the hunting courses I've taken, so the idea of being ready to shoot when the two likely "stoping places" for rounds where either A) Other Cars or B) A Public School struck me as violations of my Prime Directive of Shooting and not worth it for the sake of a moving violation.

Still if that's the way its done by the PD, then thats the way its done.

Eh... Ok then, good stop, carry on officer.

- SEAGOON