Author Topic: One of my favorite Cold War aircraft  (Read 1756 times)

Offline MiloMorai

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One of my favorite Cold War aircraft
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2005, 08:41:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
It was. Now I don't know a new version that, as most of our new inventions in historical science, has to comply with the popular Western thesis that Russians are evil bloothirsty savages.

You finally get to see the truth, unlike the lies you were told before.:)

LOL! They rotated units from Japan and other bases.

Sabre fighter units in Korea:

4thFIW > 334thFIS, 335thFIS, 336thFIS
51stFIW > 16thFIS, 25thFIS, 39thFIS, 319thFIS


And 64th IAK had only MiG-15s, while "UN" had thousands of jet fighters, bombers and attack planes.

Nice of you forget about Chinese MiGs.

2:1 ratio between Sabres and MiGs is believable, but mostly when freshly-rotated Soviet regiments encountered them for the first times, especially the second "shift", that initially flew MiG-15prim, because first "shift" left their MiG-15bis to PLAC airforce.

American "official" kill records are an utter bull****. Sabres killed more MiGs then USSR ever delivered to Korea :D

Not as bad as the Communist claims of Sabre kills; more than what had been produced up to that time. :eek: In fact only, 79 Sabres were lost to MiGs.


Also - you have a beautiful practice in concealing losses. To understand it - please, compare your "combat losses" in Korea to a number of rescue helicopter missions. You'll be surprised :D

No doubt you will skip this as well, http://www.korean-war.com/AirChronology.html

Near the bottom,

           "1. 64th IAK Strength: six fighter aviation divisions, one night fighter regiment (400-450 MiGs)
           2. 72,000 Soviets rotated through the Korean theater over the course of the war
           3. PLAAF Strength: nine fighter corps (430-500 MiGs), two bomber corps (54 Tu-2)
           4. 800 pilots and 59,700 ground support personnel served to support the air actions in the Korean theater (ten fighter corps with 21 air divisions, two bomber regiments),
           5. KPAFAC Stength: approximately 125 MiGs, unknown Po-2, Yak-11, Yak-18, La-11"
 

You have to understand that every group of units spent 6-9 months on front-line, sometimes having only three regiments with half of flight personell and machines. At the worst time about 100 MiGs were operational. As I posted above - sometimes medics withdrew pilots from active flights because of nervous and physical exaustion. For 6-9 months Soviet units had to fight without getting replacements.

UN pilots did not spend the whole 3 years in Korea either.

 

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2005, 10:53:48 AM »
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"1. 64th IAK Strength: six fighter aviation divisions, one night fighter regiment (400-450 MiGs)


Ok, first... let's call it disinformation. IAK means "Istrebitelniy AviaKorpus", "Fighter Air Corps". Six divisions is 3 times more then a corps should have. Normally it consisted of two fighter divisions, 3-4 regiments.

Again, one little thing dropped from real data - and what we get is another propaganda lie. :( This methods are boring. Nothing new on Earth :(

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2. 72,000 Soviets rotated through the Korean theater over the course of the war


Maybe true, maybe not, I don't know.

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3. PLAAF Strength: nine fighter corps (430-500 MiGs), two bomber corps (54 Tu-2)


MiGs include MiG-9s shipped since 1949-50, not only modern MiG-15s.

Chinese had severe problems with training, skills and pilots phisical conditions (they were simply underfed). Soviet pilots considered them more of a problem then assistance, they had to  save them many times.

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4. 800 pilots and 59,700 ground support personnel served to support the air actions in the Korean theater (ten fighter corps with 21 air divisions, two bomber regiments),


800 pilots in 21 air divisions and 2 bomber regiments?... On what side, under who's flag?

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5. KPAFAC Stength: approximately 125 MiGs, unknown Po-2, Yak-11, Yak-18, La-11"


What is KPFAAC? North Korean airforce? Yak-11s and Yak-18s are definetly a horrible devastating force! They were probably cheaper then ammo and fuel nessesary to shoot them down :D

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2005, 11:13:03 AM »
Ok, Boroda; lets sum up..

The Mig 15 was a superior weapon. The Migs, piloted by just a handfull of peaceful advisors stemmed the flow of UN agression and established a 2 to 1 kill ratio over the thousands of sabers flown by yankee air pirates. The Russians were the good guys and didn't start any trouble.. in fact they tried desperately to avoid any confrontation in the far east. South Korea started the Korean war, and the USSR only did what it had to in order to prevent the evil south with it's hundreds of marauding jeeps & secret trucks covered by m1 rifles from over-running the 7 russian equipped tank armor divisons massed on the border..

this pretty much cover it?
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline skernsk

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« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2005, 04:15:22 PM »
Heh, Hang if you look at it from a distance without the red star or stars and stripes you are both saying the same thing.  Just replace US and South with Russia and North and it makes no difference.

Boroda is Russian and grew up with his politics, way of life and has alot of pride in his country.  You grew up with your views and ***** red white and blue turds and are proud to be American.  Niether one of you can ever convince the other, but carry on as my Molson Canadian supply is endless and it is re-run season.

When you get tired of the Korean conflict lets move on to the Vietman one.  I know you have a few choice words for Boroda on that one.



:aok

Offline -ammo-

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« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2005, 05:01:53 PM »
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Originally posted by lada
How does he like current situation ?


He has been dead for 5 years
Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2005, 05:57:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Ok, Boroda; lets sum up..

The Mig 15 was a superior weapon. The Migs, piloted by just a handfull of peaceful advisors stemmed the flow of UN agression and established a 2 to 1 kill ratio over the thousands of sabers flown by yankee air pirates. The Russians were the good guys and didn't start any trouble.. in fact they tried desperately to avoid any confrontation in the far east. South Korea started the Korean war, and the USSR only did what it had to in order to prevent the evil south with it's hundreds of marauding jeeps & secret trucks covered by m1 rifles from over-running the 7 russian equipped tank armor divisons massed on the border..

this pretty much cover it?


I agree in some things, but, as usual, not completely ;)

MiG-15 wasn't superior to F-86. It was superior to F-80, F-84 and other pre-Sabre designs. Compared to Sabre it lacked horisontal maneurability, dive speed and rudder performance. Eugeniy Pepelyaev lost his wingman because he started a turn-fight with an F-86, relying on intelligence data that said he can outturn Sabre over 10000m.

Soviet pilots were not "peacefull advisors", they were angry, aggressive volunteers, some with combat experience, like Alexander Kumanichkin, Hero of the Soviet Union with 31 personal and 4 group kills in GPW, plus 6 kills in Korea. Their kill ratio was significantly higher then 2:1, they counted all targets, not only MiGs like 4th FG. They understood pretty well that they stop enemy bombers who come to destroy Korea, just as Germans did to USSR only 5 years earlier.

I don't know who started a civil war in Korea, and I understand that the main reason was irresponscible politics of Western "allies", who intentionally forced a division of the country, just as they did in Germany.

May I ask you one question, please? How does it come that in every conflict with both USSR and US involved on different sides - US side bombs someone "to stone age" and USSR provides air-defence? How can you explain such a difference in approach? I mean not only Korea and Vietnam, this tradition continues at least to 1999 when, as I have heard, Russia gave Yugoslavs some sattelite and radio recon information about coming NATO strikes. Unfortunately, we couldn't help in anything else, we usually follow international laws.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2005, 06:03:04 PM »
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Originally posted by skernsk
Heh, Hang if you look at it from a distance without the red star or stars and stripes you are both saying the same thing.  Just replace US and South with Russia and North and it makes no difference.

Boroda is Russian and grew up with his politics, way of life and has alot of pride in his country.  You grew up with your views and ***** red white and blue turds and are proud to be American.  Niether one of you can ever convince the other, but carry on as my Molson Canadian supply is endless and it is re-run season.


Thanks! Nice to see someone who still has some common sence! ;)

Quote
Originally posted by skernsk
When you get tired of the Korean conflict lets move on to the Vietman one.  I know you have a few choice words for Boroda on that one.
:aok


Korean conflict is an endless discussion here since maybe 2000, make some search for something like "boroda korea mig-15 ta-183".

As for Vietnam war - well, I have some indirect connection to that war, and Hangtime knows it.

Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2005, 06:32:03 PM »
At risk of being accused of backseat moderation isn't there a thread hijack going on here? What were your favourite Cold war Aircraft guys? I posted mine.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2005, 06:35:42 PM »
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Originally posted by Skydancer
At risk of being accused of backseat moderation isn't there a thread hijack going on here? What were your favourite Cold war Aircraft guys? I posted mine.


Aren't we discussing some aspects of combat usage of our favourite Cold War planes, MiG-15, F-86 and others? Korean war experience can be used to estimate combat efficiency of all this planes in hot-war scenario.

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2005, 10:59:18 PM »
Boroda thinks I am bigot and biased against the CPPP, but my favourite a/c of its era is the MiG19. :)


Offline AmRaaM

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« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2005, 11:30:00 PM »
Skernsk,

Canada really isnt a country everyone knows that.

Thus, Canadians really arent taken seriously by anyone on this planet except for bigfoot hunters.

Offline skernsk

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« Reply #71 on: July 07, 2005, 06:40:36 AM »
LOL!  You are just jealous of our free healthcare and high taxes.  Not to mention that Beaver  is out national animal.

Offline Dinger

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« Reply #72 on: July 07, 2005, 07:12:00 AM »
okay, well, Boroda's gettin' worked up, but some common sense:

A) Korean War kill numbers on both sides are pretty darn inflated. In order to give either side credit for their vaunted ratios, you have to accuse the other side of grossly underreporting airframe losses in their internal documents. In other words, you're accusing the militaries of lying to themselves. Now, the USAF admits to losing two F-94 Starfire Night Fighters -- aircraft so advanced they weren't allowed North of the 38th Parallel. They lost them in air-to-air engagements with Po-2s (and claiming one Po-2 in the process). If the US records will record losing their super-high-tech, afterburner-equipped jet fighters to 1920s-era biplanes, why would they underreport losing second-line aircraft to MiG-15s?

B) NK invaded. I dunno about provocation, but NK nearly got the whole peninsula. That's a pretty serious invasion.

C) There were US forces on the peninsula, but not many (a division, maybe?).

D) Most of the US aircraft in the Korean Conflict were not F-86s, and Boroda is absolutely right: the MiG-15 is unquestionably a superior air-to-aircraft aircraft than the F-51, the F-80, the F-84, the F9F, the Meteor and even the beloved Skyraider.

E) USAF pilots did strafe airfields north of the Yalu. They weren't supposed to go over the Yalu, but they certainly did.

F) The US did bomb the hell out of North Korea. After a few months, the bombers ran out of targets and went after Targets of Opportunities. There's even a case of a B-29 dropping down to 5000 feet and pickling single 500 pounders trying to hit a guy on a motorcycle. And, when it came time to get the North Koreans back to the negotiating table, they even bombed dams in an attempt to ruin the North Korean rice crop.

G) None of this necessarily means that the North Koreans did or did not have it coming to them; nor does it say anything about their atrocities.

H) The B-58 Hustler is badass!