Author Topic: Next level: The real reason for the conflict between Muslims and West  (Read 2614 times)

Offline funkedup

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Next level: The real reason for the conflict between Muslims and West
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2001, 04:02:00 PM »
Jammer: I skimmed the article you linked.  Ravings of a fanatic...

Offline Jammer

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« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2001, 04:07:00 PM »
funkedup: LOL. Point taken. However, I agree that bin Laden is deranged fanatic because of his psychotic willingness to sacrifice human lives, but you dismiss Pilger as a Fanatic on what grounds? Which part of his reasoning is false?

Offline 1776

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« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2001, 04:32:00 PM »
Jammer, at this point in time it doesn't matter why things are the way they are.  It only matters how things are going to be.

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2001, 04:34:00 PM »
You are right that there is clearly a distinction and I don't mean to put Pilger in the same class as bin Laden.  My main beef is with Pilger's comments about Iraq.  Iraqis are dying because they are ruled by a psychotic butcher.  Also he seems to forget who created the conflict in Afghanistan, and the fact that the territorial claims of Palestine are not so strong when you take a close look at them.

If the US really only cared about the bottom line (oil and profits), really hated Arabs, and really wanted to destroy Islam, it would go something like this:  

1.  Kill everybody from Casablanca to Kabul.  Enlist every able bodied man in the US, and just march across, leaving nothing behind but ashes.  Death camps, scorched earth policy, etc.

2.  Take the best oil areas and call them "East Texas".  Populate them with industrial colonies and reap the profits.  

3.  Give about 25% of the oil fields to Russia so they will back us, and give about 10% to Israel for good measure.  If NATO cooperates they get some too.  If not, first strike, game over.

The day that stuff happens, I'll jump on the "US is the biggest terrorist" bandwagon.  Until then I say we do more good than harm.


Offline Maverick

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« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2001, 05:08:00 PM »
Jammer,

Iraqi's CLAIM they are dying because of their leadership and support for him. He makes Stalin look like a kindly old man.

Food, medicines and other humanitarian aid has been getting to the country as well as allowing them to sell sufficient oil, legally, to buy basic subsistance goods for the nation.

If they really are dying they need to look inward for the problem.

Mav

[ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: Maverick ]
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Offline Jammer

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« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2001, 05:14:00 PM »
Maverick: Could you post some reference to your statements?

Another interesting read:


Howard Zinn: IRAQ BOMBING "ANOTHER LIE"

[ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: Jammer ]

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2001, 05:27:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jammer:
I don't want to be harsh, but the Iraqis are now dying because of international sanctions.
[ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: Jammer ]

As a result of their own actions against Kuwait. They haven't seen anything yet if it is proven they are behind this attack, which I feel at some level they are..
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Offline Jammer

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« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2001, 05:40:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler:


As a result of their own actions against Kuwait. They haven't seen anything yet if it is proven they are behind this attack, which I feel at some level they are..

But what is the difference between 500,000 Iraqi children and 20,000 americans? What makes one right and the other wrong? Are those children more guilty than the victims in the terrorist attack?

I think we are being blinded by numbers and simplistic truths. The number 500,000 doesn't mean anything to us anymore. We want to think that 'it's their own fault' because the option is too painful.

Frankly I cannot belive that there are still people defending the sanctions and continuos bombings of Iraq. Saddam Hussein might be a criminal and dictator, but this doesn't allow for the violation of international law.

Washington Post: Twisted Policy on Iraq

It will only achieve even greater hatred against the west, and soon the path to agreement and unity between west and middle-east will be closed for the forseeable future.

Noam Chomsky (Institute Professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology):

"I agree that Saddam Hussein is a great danger to everyone within his reach, just as he was in the 1980s, when his worst crimes were committed. It is, however, elementary logic that that cannot be the reason why the U.S. and Britain are opposing him. His war crimes were committed with the strong support of the United States and Britain, even after the invasion of Kuwait. Furthermore, the United States turned immediately to direct support for Saddam Hussein in March 1991, when he suppressed an uprising in the South that might have overthrown his rule.

As for his weapons of mass destruction, although that threat is also real, Iraq is by no means the only country with such weapons. You do not have to go very far from Iraq in either direction to find other examples of such countries, and the major powers are, of course, the worst threat in this respect. But even if we simply focus on Iraq, the bombing cannot have anything to do with limiting weapons of mass destruction, because the fact is that the bombing will very likely enhance those programmes. The only restriction that has existed - and it has been an effective restriction - is the regular inspection. The nuclear weapons programme has apparently been reduced to nothing or very little because of the inspections. UNSCOM inspectors have undoubtedly been impeded, but have nevertheless severely limited Iraq's weapons development capacity and have destroyed plenty of weapons. It is generally assumed, by the U.S. as well, that UNSCOM's efforts will either be terminated or marginalised very much as a result of the bombing. So that cannot be the reason for the bombing.

Although I agree that Saddam Hussein remains a serious threat to peace, there happens to be a way to deal with that question, one that has been established under international law. That procedure is the foundation of international law and international order and is also the supreme law of the land in the United States. If a country, say the United States, feels that a threat is posed to peace, it is to approach the Security Council, which has the sole authority to react to that threat. The Security Council is required to pursue all peaceful means to deal with the threat to peace, and if it determines that all such means have failed, it may then specifically authorise the use of force. Nothing else is permitted under international law, except with regard to the question, here irrelevant, of self-defence."

[ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: Jammer ]

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2001, 06:14:00 PM »
Osama bin Laden's group is a based on a fringe sect of the Sunni branch of Islam.  This fringe group belives in the kinds of things that leads to suicide bombings and other terrorist acts.  The vast majority of Sunnis do not agree with this stance, just like the vast majority of Christians do not agree with shooting abortion providers.

Interestingly Laden's group does not have any Shi'ite members.  They view Shi'ites as enemies as well.

The goal of this fringe Sunni faction is to restore the caliphate to its glory days, using Afganistan as a model.  The fact that they are using Afganistan as a model shows that they do not understand their own history.  The glory days of Islam were tolerant of Jews and Christians and treated women with respect and dignity.
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Offline 10Bears

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« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2001, 06:23:00 PM »
Jammer
 Don't be quoting Noam Chomsky to these rednecks... Pleeeese find somebody else..
-grin-

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2001, 06:28:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jammer:


But what is the difference between 500,000 Iraqi children and 20,000 americans? [ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: Jammer ]

20,000 Americans!
I can't believe you are comparing America's capitalism with Sadam's muderous invasion of Kuwait! Amazing you have the balls to side with the terrorist or the country who probably sponsored them for this horrific attack on this board...
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Offline Jammer

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« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2001, 06:50:00 PM »
Sorry, but I have repeatedly stated that I DO NOT side with any terrorists, au contraire, I strongly object, and call for justice being served by punishing the guilty.

Is that clear?

I brought up the comparison (perhaps unwisely, and I apologize) to bring in perspective what we are talking about.

People are dying in Iraq because of sanctions (this has been confimred by many parties, like UNICEF and the Cheif of UN Humanitary control, see my links above), still some people suggest that its deserved, or that one have to accept 'collateral damage'. This is baroque and absurd. Suggesting this is reverse logic.

The terrorist act on the 11th is inexcuseable and a tragedy of epic proportions, but unless we aknowledge our own atrocities and adress them, this conflict is going to prevail. That is my fear.

And on a further notice, I do not side with Sadam Hussein either, but I DO side with the innocent civilians that suffer and die under the sanctions put upon them. And so would anyone (I would imagine) who had the ability to read and comprehend the information that is available.

And please, bringing up Sadams 'murderous invasion of Kuwait' is ridiculos, as he was the favorite pet of the West during the long and brutal war against Iran. Don't tell me you cannot see through that obvious double standard?

[ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: Jammer ]

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2001, 06:58:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jammer:
People are dying in Iraq because of sanctions (this has been confimred by many parties, like UNICEF and the Cheif of UN Humanitary control, see my links above), still some people suggest that its deserved, or that one have to accept 'collateral damage'. This is baroque and absurd. Suggesting this is reverse logic.

The terrorist act on the 9th is inexcuseable and a tragedy of epic proportions, but unless we aknowledge our own atrocities and adress them, this conflict is going to prevail. That is my fear.

If they are dying, it is because Sadam is letting them die. Instead of providing for his people, he buys anti-aircraft weapon systems from China.... Maybe the ppl of Iraq have had enough and will do something about it if/when the US does end up attacking the Iraq gov/military as a result of the terrorist attack instead of jumping up and down in front of tv cameras screaming "Death to America".

The attack was on the 11th...
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Offline Jammer

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« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2001, 07:11:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler:
[QB]

If they are dying, it is because Sadam is letting them die. Instead of providing for his people, he buys anti-aircraft weapon systems from China.... Maybe the ppl of Iraq have had enough and will do something about it if/when the US does end up attacking the Iraq gov/military as a result of the terrorist attack instead of jumping up and down in front of tv cameras screaming "Death to America".
[QB]

With all due respect, that is totally wrong. If you would even bother to read the information available you would see this. I've yet to be presented a reasonable excuse for upholding the sanctions and continuing the bombings.

I'm sorry but the hypocricy is appalling to me.