Next level: The real reason for the conflict between Muslims and West

[Jammer]

Let me begin with paying my respect and condoleances for all victims in the late events. Let me also declare that I'm firmly against terrorist activities of any kind. If there was anything I could do to make what occured not happen, I would do it.

This said, I think it would be interesting to discuss what I, we, you percive as the real reasons behind this tradition of conflict between the western countries and the muslim world. Sure we can track the conflict all the way back to the crusades in the 11th and 12th centuries, but let's stick to the last 50 years, the aftermath of WWII.

-1947 Israel was founded in a unique way, more or less unheard of in history. A new state appeared over night, a paper product that later have cost many lives to uphold. This is a 'dead horse' in the conflict. It has been beaten over and over, and still it's being beaten over. Israel is supported by mainly the US, but also by other western powers.

-A large part of the worlds oil reserves is located in the middle east, traditional muslim counties. The west has retained a strong presence in the region for the control of this 'black gold'. Historically it has been the British who were the strong power in the area, but since WWII this role has been taken over by the US.

-Another point is; who were the original agressors? No western country (to my knowledge) has been occupied by 'muslim military' for the last 100 years. What is the influence that makes the Muslim feel their way of life is threatened? Are they making it all up?

Ok I hope we can have discussion here, above gutter level. And again note that none of this argumentation is intended as an 'excuse' for terrorism - its always inexcuseable, but rather an attempt to see beneath the suface of the conflict.

Any thoughts?

[funkedup]

http://www.esquire.com/features/articles/2001/010913_mfe_binladen_1.html

[Jammer]

Interesting article, but it does not cover any of the historical background of the conflict, other than bin Ladens religous nonsense rambling.

What is your comment on the Israel matter? The Iraqi matter? Syria?

Does the conflict have any substantial ground?

[Eagler]

Originally posted by funkedup:
http://www.esquire.com/features/articles/2001/010913_mfe_binladen_1.html

Yep, reaffirms the fact that he is a nutcase...to bad the reporter didn't take care of him when he could.

failed to mention that it was the military weapons the US gave/sold to his band of "holy warriors" which finally defeated the Russians along with the fact that Russia was crumbling at the same time from the inside out - a direct result of American involvement. I just hope when they do kill his sorry ass, there is positive proof he is dead! Not some burnt head the Taliban shows as proof he is gone...

Jammer
At this point I do not care WHY they did it, I just want them to pay for it!

[Jammer]

Eagler I can understand your point.

But at some point we got to ask ourselves why, or we are likely to face more tragedies like this one.

[Yeager]

Whatever led up to this act of war is said and done.  Whether one believes that the American people are responsible for this attack or Bin Laden -the fact remains that four American commercial airliners were hijacked by Egyption and Saudi Arabian terrorists and targeted with horrific results into the heart of the American way of life.

One fact that is now undeniable is that every single American is now a potentiol target of death and destruction at the hands of these militant and fanatical Islamic terrorists.

PS
I am disgusted and angry with Americans who are openly sympathetic with these terrorists and their cause by calling them brave and their actions heroic.

Y

[Jammer]

Try to see my question.

Why are we (the west) targets of this anger?

[zapkin]

In my opinion...the way they treat their women is reason enough to bomb the scum!

[Jammer]

...and so end the hope of a meaningful discussion on theese boards.

In 1948, the State Department's senior imperial planner, George Kennan, wrote: "We have 50 per cent of the world's wealth, but only 6.3 per cent of its population. In this situation, our real job in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which permit us to maintain this position of disparity. To do so, we have to dispense with all sentimentality . . . we should cease thinking about human rights, the raising of living standards and democratisation."

[ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: Jammer ]

[Urchin]

I think "we" are a target for these guys because they are religious fanatics.  They really believe that it is their duty to spread Islam all around the world, and we are holding them up.  For instance, they hate us because we support Isreal.  They hate us because we are mostly interested in the Middle East because of the oil there.  They think they are superior to us, and since we don't acknowledge it, they hate us.

I don't think all muslims feel that way- it is just to bad that the ones that DO feel that way give the rest a very bad reputation.  I'm rather more concerned with how we are going to deal with Afghanistan over this.  I'm pretty sure it was Osama bin Laden that was behind the attack, and if Afghanistan doesn't turn him over what can we do about it?  Bombing the country would be pretty much useless, as would an economic embargo.  That pretty much leaves the only other meaningful option as sending in ground troops to occupy the country while we search for bin Laden, and that pretty much means a second Vietnam war for us.  

Don't get me wrong- if the U.S.A send troops over there, I'll enlist in the Army and request orders to go over there, I just don't think it would be in the best interests of the country to do it.

[1776]

Jammer, please explain in plain English what the point of your posts are.  It isn't clear what you are driving at in these posts.  Please grace us with your opinion.

[funkedup]

Jammer read the interview, all of it.  

A digest:
They believe we have forced our culture, freedoms, spiritual beliefs, and business practices upon them and it is destroying Islam.  They believe that it is worth killing and dying to stop this from happening.  So they are trying to destroy the US or at least kill so many US citizens that we discontinue our relationships.

[Dowding]

I think Jammer raises some interesting issues and I also believe that military action will not stop future attacks of even greater magnitude. They are short-term fixes. We have to look at the past to see the origins of the conflict in order to understand how to proceed.

[10Bears]

We haven't been seeing a lot of news from Israel what with all the talk about wither Gary Condit did or didn't... No need to show Israeli F16 Falcons blasting the crap outta a residential apartment building. Or American built Apache gunships emptying an entire rocket clip into a refuge camp. Or water trucks being denied access to settlements that the only way to get water is to have it trucked in. Or an apartide system 10x worse than S. Africa...

We support all this. We support to the tune of 10 billon a year. The biggest welfare client of all.

  Had the liberal media spent a little more time showing these images, had discussed our relatiship with Israel and our role in the middle east... Had pushed Israel a little harder to kick-start the peace talks. Perhaps we wouldn't be made the target. Possibly, our ivory towers would still be standing.
  This idea of bombing the crap outta Afhaganistan or invading the country is ridiculous. Sure we might kill ladan, but somebody will take his place. Its not until we confront the reason for their radicalism and start treating people like humans instead of 3/4 human.
Also its time for the media to get back to work. They get easy paychecks doing nothing but talking about GaryConditGaryConditGaryCondi t. Did the president touch Monica's left breast or her right breast first?
A little off topic but I noticed when Ari Flishner (sp?) the president's spokesmen talked about the trashing of air force one; his eyebrows shot straight up. A few months later we find out he was lying. Now the other day when he was talking about creditable evidence that AF1 was a target, his eyebrows again... shot straight up to the top of his forehead. Whets the point of lying about that?
10B

[Jammer]

Urchin: Good post. Interesting views.

1776: The point of my posts? The only point is to have a discussion about what people percive as the reasons behind the conflict. Also I want to see what people think about the merit that theese reasons hold.

funkedup: I skimmed the artice, the first part was basically a story about how the interviewer got to meet bin Laden, right? The interview itself only mirrors the rethorics of fanatic. I'm not interested in propaganda from either side. I'm interested in independnant, free minded discussion.

How can this conflict be solved?

I think we can agree that two wrongs don't make one right. Still capturing and prosecuting the guilty is of outmost importance.

I refer to this article for reference:

Far from being the terrorists of the world, the Islamic peoples have been its victims : John Pilger :13 Sep 2001