Author Topic: Comparing Islam to Christianity  (Read 4344 times)

Offline Silat

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Comparing Islam to Christianity
« Reply #195 on: July 20, 2005, 01:57:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
well silat.. I think I agree with gunthr that you are trying to diminish the acts of the jihad terrorists by saying  christians are intolerant too "its just a matter of degree."

Well yeah.. it is a matter of degree... like getting a mild tan and burning to death in a fiery wreck are both the same.... burned.. just a matter of degree.   When you are talking about these murderous fanatics you can no more compare them to the guy next door to me with his intolerance of celebrating birthdays than in the burning example.

While I agree that all intolerance is bad to some degree..  not drinking caffiene say is not worth me getting upset about (till they get powerful enough to make it law) like a jihadist getting his murderous zealot hands on a suitcase nuke..  

I most certainly do think that we should track down all jihadist sects of the muslim religion and wipe them out.   I would prefer they be killed but jailed forever would be ok.   They have a vowed agenda to kill inocent people... they need to die.

I had no problem with the brits wiping out the IRA cells.   If that is considered wiping out a sect of the catholic church then so be it.

If the jehova witnesses form a group of murderous zealots we will deal with them.

hell... if a murderous splinter group of the UAW shows up then treat them the same.

lazs


Well I think we agree more than we disagree LAZ:)
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Offline rshubert

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Comparing Islam to Christianity
« Reply #196 on: July 20, 2005, 02:21:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
.. I suspect your unable to see the forrest from the trees, Seagoon. With all respect, your focus remains the same.. 'we're good, they are evil'.

Secular definition changes not a whit the simple truth.. Holy Warriors kill millions.

Now, having clearly stated that your side is 'right' and their side is 'wrong', what's the church's next call to action? 'Turn the other cheek'? Or 'fire with fire'?

Solve the problem Seagoon.. WHAT makes your side, your principals 'holier' than theirs? How do you propose convincing the other team to play by 'your' rules? And, just what do YOU think the solution is?

Be honest.. and remember, this is NOT a personal attack.. it's a search for truth and a solution to the largest plauge on humanity. The world awaits the answer.


I think you are missing the point, and YOU are not seeing through the surface of the problem.  You probably are one of those that identify a religion exclusively with the human practice of that religious belief system.

Here's my take on it;  the religion is not at fault.  It's the people.  If, however, the members of a church (whether christian, islamic, buddhist, or shinto, or WHATEVER) allow an evil group to flourish in their midst (can we all agree that blowing up children is evil?). then the CHURCH is evil.  Not the God.  Not the Faith.  Not the sect, creed, or belief.  The Church, a body of people who practice a faith together.

Focus on that thought.  If a group of evil people espouse a belief system, no matter how "good" that system, and use it for evil purposes, they do not pollute the belief system.  They do pollute the practice.

That being said, I come to this conclusion:  If a Muslim (or christian, or shinto, or hindu) congregation does evil in the name of their religion, then THEY are evil.  If the greater organization of that faith supports the evil, THEY are evil, too.  If other members of that faith refuse to condemn the evil done by their brothers, THEY are also evil.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #197 on: July 20, 2005, 02:47:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rshubert

That being said, I come to this conclusion:  If a Muslim (or christian, or shinto, or hindu) congregation does evil in the name of their religion, then THEY are evil.  If the greater organization of that faith supports the evil, THEY are evil, too.  If other members of that faith refuse to condemn the evil done by their brothers, THEY are also evil.


Ok.. so what's that make this guy:

Ladies and gentlemen, Christianity offers the only viable, reasonable, definitive answer to the questions of 'Where did I come from?' 'Why am I here?' 'Where am I going?' 'Does life have any meaningful purpose?' Only Christianity offers a way to understand that physical and moral border. Only Christianity offers a comprehensive worldview that covers all areas of life and thought, every aspect of creation. Only Christianity offers a way to live in response to the realities that we find in this world -- only Christianity.

or This guy:

If we are going to save America and evangelize the world, we cannot accommodate secular philosophies that are diametrically opposed to Christian truth.

Hmmmmmm???

Would surely love to find some negative christian sourced commentary regarding these position statements.
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Offline Silat

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Comparing Islam to Christianity
« Reply #198 on: July 20, 2005, 04:01:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Ok.. so what's that make this guy:

Ladies and gentlemen, Christianity offers the only viable, reasonable, definitive answer to the questions of 'Where did I come from?' 'Why am I here?' 'Where am I going?' 'Does life have any meaningful purpose?' Only Christianity offers a way to understand that physical and moral border. Only Christianity offers a comprehensive worldview that covers all areas of life and thought, every aspect of creation. Only Christianity offers a way to live in response to the realities that we find in this world -- only Christianity.

or This guy:

If we are going to save America and evangelize the world, we cannot accommodate secular philosophies that are diametrically opposed to Christian truth.

Hmmmmmm???




Would surely love to find some negative christian sourced commentary regarding these position statements.



Keep dreaming..........
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Offline Simaril

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Comparing Islam to Christianity
« Reply #199 on: July 20, 2005, 06:04:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Ok.. so what's that make this guy:

Ladies and gentlemen, Christianity offers the only viable, reasonable, definitive answer to the questions of 'Where did I come from?' 'Why am I here?' 'Where am I going?' 'Does life have any meaningful purpose?' Only Christianity offers a way to understand that physical and moral border. Only Christianity offers a comprehensive worldview that covers all areas of life and thought, every aspect of creation. Only Christianity offers a way to live in response to the realities that we find in this world -- only Christianity.

or This guy:

If we are going to save America and evangelize the world, we cannot accommodate secular philosophies that are diametrically opposed to Christian truth.

Hmmmmmm???

Would surely love to find some negative christian sourced commentary regarding these position statements.




OK, first lets define intolerance as "preaching" hatred or violence towards those with different viewpoints. Intolerance is NOT the opposite of vacuous openmindedness; one can believe some things are true, and others are untrue, without being intolerant.

This distinction is very important, because the modern US culture has schizophrenic attitudes towards intolerance: on one hand the culture at large strongly condemns any negative speech about a wide variety of belief systems; on the other hand, it feels free to macerate anyone whose personal beliefs include intrinsic value judgements. As a side effect of this endemic nonjudgementalism, even intelligent people have become disturbingly comfortable in holding mutually contradictory beliefs. I find that when teaching postgraduate students how to analyse scientific literature, I have to spend a good amount of time just getting them used to applying simple logic -- what conclusions CAN and CAN'T be drawn from a specific set of data. They're jsut not used to saying something's wrong.


Now to the question at hand. Christianity has definite value judgements intrinsic to the core of the belief system. Some things are wrong, period -- including hatred, btw. Some things are true, whether you like them or not. So to believe in these non-relativistic Christian teachings, you instantly are going to run afoul of our culture.

This is not the same as being intolerant. If a someone really believes the core Christian teachings -- like "Jesus was God come to earth, and taught us the way we should live, and said He is the only way to be made right with God" -- then though many would call him intolerant, he hasnt been intolerant yet. The real question comes with what happens next. If the believer acts justly, loves mercy, and lives humbly with those around him there shouldnt be a problem. If the believer tries to exclude dissenters from the neighborhood, or to outlaw other groups or interfere with their worship -- then that's intolerance.



I cannot condemn those who believe that Jesus' claims are true. Jesus claimed to be the only way to heaven. This claim is internally consistent; if you allow the premise (that God found it necessary to confine himself to human form-- akin to my become a literal cockroach --, found it necessary to offer himself as a sacrifice, and to in doing so take on the penalty for all the wrong ever done on earth) it jsut makes sense that less traumatic methods couldnt have worked. Otherwise, why do it?

While that may sound "intolerant" it is not. I believe the fault is in the culture, not the claim.

If the second comment (about accomodating secular philosophies)  referred to the internal life of the believer, then I agree with it fully. I cant expect to have my life remade in the image of Christ -- becoming less selfish, more loving, kinder, etc -- while still hoilding to the almost narcissistic western secular ideal. If he meant that Christians should root secularlism out of the culture, then he was not only wrong (Jesus taught that changing external behavior without internal heart change is worthless) but the guy was dancing near the line of idiocy. How can you de-secularize the secular?

I do condemn those who threaten violence, incite hatred, or make their philosophical differences a cause for personal animus. Randall Terry threatening to "execute" abortionists (who, right or wrong, were acting in accordance with US  law) is unconscionably wrong, and may incite others to do wrongful violence.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2005, 06:20:32 PM by Simaril »
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Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #200 on: July 20, 2005, 07:33:57 PM »
Trying to follow this. It's pretty hard. I'm interested in this:

Quote
Ok.. so what's that make this guy:

Ladies and gentlemen, Christianity offers the only viable, reasonable, definitive answer to the questions of 'Where did I come from?' 'Why am I here?' 'Where am I going?' 'Does life have any meaningful purpose?' Only Christianity offers a way to understand that physical and moral border. Only Christianity offers a comprehensive worldview that covers all areas of life and thought, every aspect of creation. Only Christianity offers a way to live in response to the realities that we find in this world -- only Christianity.

or This guy:

If we are going to save America and evangelize the world, we cannot accommodate secular philosophies that are diametrically opposed to Christian truth.

Hmmmmmm???

Would surely love to find some negative christian sourced commentary regarding these position statements.



__________________


I think secular humanists might agree that other viewpoints are acceptable as long as they do not impinge on your belief of what liberty is.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2005, 07:36:52 PM by Gunthr »
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Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #201 on: July 20, 2005, 07:38:30 PM »
I would like to hear more.
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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #202 on: July 20, 2005, 08:22:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunthr
Trying to follow this. It's pretty hard. I'm interested in this:

I think secular humanists might agree that other viewpoints are acceptable as long as they do not impinge on your belief of what liberty is.


Hi Gunthr!

'secular humanists' ?? Thats kinds slippery.. I guess I'm a secular humanist, yes?

The two quotes are quite specific, and clearly call for 'one religion'.. in this case; christianity. (there's a heap more like it, prostylized stuff from every major faith is out there, this ain't JUST a 'christian' problem.. it's a 'religion' problem) If you are a christian, I'd expect you'd not find anything 'wrong' with the quotes above. If your not, it's the equivelent of fingernails on a chalkboard.

It would seem that one of the most difficult propositions for a christian (or, insert whatever your favorite faith is here) is discerning where 'right' ends and 'wrong' begins when it comes to promoting their faith.. intolerance is just that:  'intolerant'. It can't be pared down any further than that. Considering the immense amount of angst associated with any religious debate, commentary that casts their favorite flavor in a controversial light tends to be the equivelent of handling nitro..

Back to the concept of religious intolerance.. It's just wrong. Now; how are we gonna fight the islamic extremists without committing religious warfare?

and lastly.. congrats to all involved so far.. this thread, this subject has exceeded my expectations in both quality and quantity of reasoned debate!
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Offline Simaril

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« Reply #203 on: July 20, 2005, 10:37:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Hi Gunthr!

snip...
 If you are a christian, I'd expect you'd not find anything 'wrong' with the quotes above. If your not, it's the equivelent of fingernails on a chalkboard.

It would seem that one of the most difficult propositions for a christian (or, insert whatever your favorite faith is here) is discerning where 'right' ends and 'wrong' begins when it comes to promoting their faith.. intolerance is just that:  'intolerant'. It can't be pared down any further than that.

snip



paring is one thing; but how woudl you define intolerance, hang? Statements of disagreement, or suppression?


Promoting your beliefs is what democracy is all about. Democrat or Republican, liberal or conservative, we each have ideas about the best place to balance policy continuums. More freedom of action, or more protection fo the weak? More protection for individual rights, or more emphasis on the common good? The town square, or the porch in front of the dry goods store, was the traditional forum for those discussions. Are they now off limits in the name of diversity?

If not, then discussing, comparing, and sharing convictions -- including about faith -- should be freely allowed. The right to share and spread ideas should be protected, even if those ideas seem closed minded. When anybody says their way is best, the onus is on them to convince others. Just because they say "we're the best " doesnt mean they are oppressors.

I understand secularists' concerns, because religious fundamentalist governments have done the world a world of hurt. But even as a christian, I simply do not believe that such a government could be established in the USA, most basically because US christians have a long history of stubborn individualism. Those self anointed leaders who claim divine calling for this or that almsot immediately fade away in a wash of skepticism. The Moral Majority is gone, and Jerry Falwell is nationally marginalized. The leader of Promise Keepers saw his movement fade away not long after he publically said he thought his movement was God's last chance for redeeming America. Pat Robertson ran for president, had a political action group, but now mostly runs his tv shows. Those folks strive for IMPACT but cannot exert control over the political process.
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Offline Simaril

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Comparing Islam to Christianity
« Reply #204 on: July 20, 2005, 10:51:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime


snip....
Now; how are we gonna fight the islamic extremists without committing religious warfare?

 



I'd suggest by going after the crime, and leaving the religion out of it.

You foment rebellion or violence? You steal, bomb, or terrorize? I dont care what your excuse is, you done did a crime and we can (try to) get you for it. Use legal channels, and stay in the limits you set for your own people. Blind retaliation jsut doesnt work -- look at Israel -- especially in cultures that still honor the tradition of blood feuds.

Meanwhile, work JUST AS HARD at cutting the legs out from under them by dealing with any legitimate gripes you possibly can. Make sure that as much as possible, you address the economic and political problems that plague the terror generating cultures. Dont coddle them, but dont give them excuses to go ballistic.

I personally am agast that we are holding people at Gitmo without any legal status. Some of the inmates may be terrorists, and more are doubtless anti-USA, anti- democracy. Are some jsut guys who fought because we invaded their country, and are some innocent people who got caught up in the net? They have no representation, they arent POWs, they arent protected by the same Geneva COnventions we would demand for our people because "We're fighting a war". Its been 3-4 years.  It must be generating another population of friends and relatives with bitterness against us. It's wrong.


And I am a conservative who's voted republican in almost every election fo my life, out of policy belief and not party loyalty.
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Offline Seagoon

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Comparing Islam to Christianity
« Reply #205 on: July 20, 2005, 10:56:14 PM »
Hi All,

I think it might be valuable, instead of talking about the differences between Islam and Christianity, or even the subject of intolerance, to simply set out some basics presuppositions that Bible believing Christians have had for centuries. I'm not going to get into the nuances or minutia between denominations, I'm simply going to spell out 10 of the basic beliefs of what are today called "Christian Fundamentalists" because I believe that an understanding of these will ultimately be beneficial to undestanding what Christian "extremists" believe and how and why Christianity differs from other religions.  

First off, a necessary introduction. Fundamentalism is not a new phenomenon in Christianity or America.

A belief in "the fundamental beliefs of the Christian faith" from which the nick-name is derived, has been shared by   (among countless others) Paul, Tertullian, Athanasius, Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas, Tyndale, Huss, Erasmus, Luther, Calvin, Knox, Cranmer, Wesley, Newton, Bacon, Witherspoon, Mason, Madison, Henry, Webster, Wilberforce, Kuyper, Spurgeon, Swindoll, Sproul, and so on.

But what are some of these fundamental beliefs, particularly those that impinge upon the current conversation?

Fundamentalist Christians believe:

1) That the Bible is the written word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit and without error in the original manuscripts. The Bible is the revelation of God’s truth and is infallible and authoritative in all matters of faith and practice. It provides for us an authentic testimony of the will and work of God.

2) There is only one God, who exists eternally in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That these three are one God, the same in substance, equal in power and glory.

3) That the Universe and everything in it was created out of nothing by God.

4) That sin is the transgression of (or want of conformity to) to God's law.

5) That shortly after the Creation, man who was created sinless, fell by sinning, and from that time on all men are born sinners, justly deserving the righteous judgment of God and unable to save themselves from God’s displeasure, except by His mercy. [This is why children do not need to be taught to lie or be selfish, they are born naturally inclined towards sin.]

6) That Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, who through His perfect life and sacrificial death atoned for the sins of all who will trust in Him, alone, for salvation.

7) That regeneration, by which a person is brought to spiritual life (born again) is a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit and normally accompanies the preaching of the Gospel ("Good News").

8) That the Holy Spirit indwells God’s people and gives them the strength and wisdom to trust Christ and follow Him - although not perfectly in this lifetime.

9) They believe that Jesus will return, bodily and visibly, to judge all mankind and to receive His people to Himself. The time of his return is not known by any man, but it will signal the end of this "present evil age" and mark the final overthrow of sin and the devil and everything it has wrought upon the world, including death, disease, sorrow, etc.

10) They believe that all aspects of our lives are to be lived to the glory of God under the Lordship of Jesus Christ.    

Now, taking the above list, let me try to engage some of the main points currently under contention.

First, regarding the idea that Christianity offers the only viable worldview option, if one believes that the bible is literally the word of God, then that is an unavoidable conclusion. All of other worldviews, in so far as they deviate from or contradict the witness of the bible will necessarily be false. And worldviews that claim to offer salvation through any means but faith in Christ must be considered harmful.

Second, if one believes the Bible, then one will obey the command of Christ to go out into the world as an ambassador of Christ proclaiming only what Christ has commanded rather than making up rules as one goes along or teaching something else. Christ Himself declared that salvation was impossible through any other means but faith in Him and his Apostles taught the same. Therefore it is not "intolerant" to proclaim an exclusive Christian message but only logical - if one believes the bible. One can hardly claim to be a bible-believing follower of Christ and then contradict what he Himself taught and commanded in the Word.

Third, regarding "toleration" of other worldviews, if toleration means coexisting with those who hold worldviews one can live peaceably among, then Christians are certainly called to tolerance. However, if tolerance means accepting the truth claims of non-Christian worldview, then that kind of tolerance is not possible. In other words, I am called to live in peace, in so far as it is up to me, with say Zoroastrians. But if I am forced to believe and proclaim that Zoroastrianism is "true" or that one can go to heaven through some other means than faith in Christ, then I must deny that claim regardless of the consequences to me.

Fourth, it is not loving to leave someone in a burning building, or not attempt to turn someone away from walking off a cliff. In the same way, if one truly believes that only through faith in Christ can one have true peace with both God and man and avoid an eternity in hell, it is not loving to fail to preach the gospel, in fact if one is truly loving one will do so in the hopes that some will realize their peril and be saved. "Forcing" someone to convert is however totally pointless, because unless someone is really inwardly changed by the Holy Spirit, such a conversion is meaningless. It would be as pointless as bursting into my house and forcing me at gunpoint to confess to being a Martian. The forced confession doesn't make it true neither would painting me green or dressing me up. Therefore, as much as we might lament it, if someone stubbornly continues in their course off the cliff, there is no way we can forcibly turn them out of the way. All we can do is beg, exhort, and plead with them to turn before it is too late.

Now if there is an interest, I can compare and contrast the above with the teachings of Islam or answer questions, or whatever...

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Offline Yeager

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« Reply #206 on: July 20, 2005, 11:17:44 PM »
I remember when two American Christian women were imprisoned by the Taliban in Afganistan just prior to the 9/11 attacks for trying to convert Muslims to Christ, the taliban was threatening to execute them.

I remember thinking how pathetic it was that these two American women were going to be murdered for preaching the word of Christ in a muslim country yet this Christian nation fully supports the right to believe in the koran and to worship in a mosque.

I have little patience for that bass ackwards religion and if they ever manage to detonate a nuclear device in my country then Im afraid its John Wayne time.

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Offline bozon

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« Reply #207 on: July 21, 2005, 07:08:39 AM »
You have to remember that the old testement - ancient judaism was a religion ment for the Hebrews ONLY - and this is the major point in which christianity (and later Islam) diverges from judaism.

Only jews have to worship god and follow his laws, other nation may do it but they do not have to. You can only be a sinner if you are a jew, and the punishments described in the old testement are for jews NOT for other nations - They can do what ever they like (under some basic moral limitation as was the case of Sodom).

The old testement discourage member of other nation from accepting judaism and pile difficulties for them - the major one is the bris. Imagine how successfull cristianity would have been if they tried to convert grown up people by telling them they have to cut some skin from their dicks.

To convert to judaism one have to show cencere willing. Becoming a jew becaused you married a jew is not considered good enough reason (although it is today)
The old testement have many specific laws for protecting non-jews living in the land of Israel. They are not to be converted to Judaism against their will.

I tried to read the new testement and I hope that nobody is offended if I say it's crap (I'm talking literature). On the other hand, when I read the bible in english it's much worse than the hebrew version of it so translations may be the problem.

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Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #208 on: July 21, 2005, 07:53:06 AM »
A bit off topic - I have my own religion - I had to invent it because I realize that while I believe in God and I pray, I have so many secular ideals that I don't fit in with any organized religion that I know of.  I'm quite tolerent, and I believe anyone else's spiritual God or belief system is just as valid as mine.

I would have been happy just having my own religion and not bothering anybody else with it.  I'm at the stage where I don't need answers to a lot of life's deep questions.  The problem is, I have an inquisitive 10 year old child who keeps asking me questions, so I had to think about where I stand on some things.

I hate to post a link with a lot of reading, but there is a lot to chew on in this secular catechism.  Read it, and you might be surprized about how you identify yourself:

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/charles_watts/secularists_catechism.html


I still think Islamic intolerance is totally different than Christian intolerance, or religious intolerance in general.  The Islamist kind will get you killed, the other kinds might get you labeled a lost soul condemned to hell, maybe an odd clinic bombing here and there, but not the wholesale targeting of innocents.  I think this is where partisan politics creep into these discussions - and lead people to try to draw paralells.  This is a disservice.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #209 on: July 21, 2005, 08:04:19 AM »
again... I agree with gunther and share a belief in god without a belief in any particular religion.  While I think they all make good stories and one or another might even be true... I have no faith in any of em.

From time to time one of em gets powerful or full of murderous zealots tho and then they scare me... At this point I believe it is the muslim religion that is coddling these murderous zealots on a grand scale.  

lazs