Would it be a reasonable expectation

[SaburoS]

The bad part in all this is the whole tends to get blamed for what the fanatical minor fraction terrorists do.
There are different factions of Muslims as there are different types of Christians.
Do the math.
I don't recall seeing many Christian types condemning those fanatics that actually murdered certain doctors because of the abortion issue.
Perhaps it is not one's responsibility to have a need to apologise for another's action that you might not agree with simply because you share the same religion.
95-99+% of innocent people have to answer for the fanatical fraction?
What kind of America are we standing for anyway?
Freedom, Liberty, and Justice for all (except if you're Muslim?)?

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
to demand of the Muslim communities in the free and civilized world that they do more than pay "lip service" to the idea that Islam is NOT in agreement with the terroists that claim their "jihad" is based on the Muslim faith?

Would it not be true that Muslims that live in a community and look the other way at best, and encourage/sanction/fund the activities of the terrorists living in their midst at worst, are just as guilty as those who commit the acts? Would they not be just as guilty as anyone else who had prior knowledge of or prior involvement with any other crime and did nothing to stop it?

Once it reaches the point where there are those who are inciting riots, murders, bombings, and other acts of terrorism, there is no longer any "grey area" about freedom and tolerance of religion or speech.

I would expect the same thing of any other race, creed, religion, or other sect. Harboring murderers and remaining silent while giving "lip service" to the denouncing of their acts is nothing more than a decietful endorsement of those acts.

Good luck. Muslim extremists feel their way of life, holy lands, and views are under attack by Christians and Jews. We dont see it like they do. To us we are fighting a terrorist group, to them they are fighting infidels, its a completely different mentality and is why Iraq will be in a civil war within 6 months of the "Coalition" pulling out.

There are some moderates in the muslim world but I fear they are outnumbered and well frankly their enemy's cut heads off. i.e not enough good guys to keep the bad guys in check.

[SaburoS]

Originally posted by Lazerus
The propensity to stereotype members of the Muslim religion wouldn't be so strong if this philosophy wasn't so prevalent.

The Muslim community needs to speak out against this type of barbarism to legitimisize their faith.

The absence of a general outcry against the fanatical sects of Islam from the mainstream Muslim community is deafening.

How about this:
Fanatical terrorist of a different color
I didn't notice the outcry by Christians against this fellow. They both have a scary simularity as to their justifications for why they do what they do.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Suave
Most americans who gave to the IRA had no idea that they were giving money to the IRA. CFC for example.

I dont know. I remember going to some sort of Irish festival with my father (My Grandmother is from Belfast) when I was like 10 or 11 and there being a stand where you could donate to the IRA.
 and get "I.R.A. ALL THE WAY" Buttons and T-shirts.

Cant say with any certainty if he donated or not. But knowing him and how close he was with my great grandmother and how she felt about the Brit government (something about the killing of Irish baby boys back around the late 1800's-early 1900's) he might have.

He's gone 12 years now so since he cant say it for himself I'll apologise for him for the killing of any civilians .

I know he wouldnt have supported that. Government personell/targets is another story.

[lazs2]

subaru... your example is fine except... that anti abortion guy did not strap a bunch of explosives on himself and blow up the run of the mill everyday citizen... he targeted abortion doctors and clinics.

That still makes him a murderer but... not much danger to me unless I am in an abortion clinic or an abortion doctor.   He doesn't have a training school that is saying that all the people in the U.S. have to die untill they convert to his faith/reasoning.

I don't think he should be allowed to live (he wasn't) or to train others to kill.   If all the anti abortion killers came from one state or training camp... we would need to take measures against the supporters.  

It is so obvious that the guy is not following christian principals and there are SO FEW christians doing what he does that he is not worth mentioning by other christians...  There is no christian jihad.

lazs

[cpxxx]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
.
I am not the sort to judge by the color of skin, the clothes, or the religious book carried or not carried. However, at this point, given the gravity of the situation facing the civilized free world, I'm not so prone as I once was to offer freedom and tolerance to everyone without question. I am as opposed as anyone to a "police state" or to surrendering freedoms. But I am also just as opposed to having my friends and family slaughtered by some psychopath in the name of whatever religion or other cause he espouses.

In the other thread you came across all offended at my supposed ASSumptions. Yet here we are in a new thread and there it is in a far more expiicit form.

I'm not so prone as I once was to offer freedom and tolerance to everyone without question.

Would it not be true that Muslims that live in a community and look the other way at best, and encourage/sanction/fund the activities of the terrorists living in their midst at worst, are just as guilty as those who commit the acts?

It seems my reading and comprehension is not so bad after all.

I'll quote myself

What I think will happen is that quietly, moderate British Muslims will begin to call the police and tip them off when they hear of someone shooting his mouth off or acting strangely. Quite simply, the moderates know that their lives will become intolerable if they shelter the extremists. They have nowhere to go after all for the most part. In the end, extremism will mostly damage their own community.

 The problem for Muslims right now is that the can't win. In spite of the fact the most people killed by Al Qaeda are in fact Muslim (Shia) in Iraq. Even if they hate what is happening. They are implicated by ignorant people and will be targeted by some.

I'm not so prone as I once was to offer freedom and tolerance to everyone without question.

to demand of the Muslim communities in the free and civilized world that they do more than pay "lip service" to the idea that Islam is NOT in agreement with the terroists that claim their "jihad" is based on the Muslim faith?

[lazs2]

I think that what we are all missing here is the degree...  No other terrorist group has been so affiliated with a religion and has done so much horrific damage.

The other thing is that the very nature of a "suicide" bombing shows that the terrorists will stop at nothing... and... that they have plenty of followers to carry out the attacks.... the nature of the targets shows that it is anyone who is not of their belief.... man woman or child, is a target.

The frequency, savagery, targeting and volume exceed what we can allow.   They are a genuine world wide threat to anyone who is not a jihad muslim.    which is allmost every one of us.   There is no pleasing them short of our deaths.

There will be no peace with them short of their deaths.  Any support for them is support for the destruction of us all.

lazs

[Nashwan]

Most americans who gave to the IRA had no idea that they were giving money to the IRA.

Noraid was the main fundraiser for the IRA in the 70s and 80s. After a court battle it was forced to register as an agent for the IRA, to make it explicitly known that that was where the money they were raising was going.

There were also a string of arms smuggling convictions against Noraid members and their associates.

Escaped terrorist murderers like Joe Doherty were made Grand Marshalls of St Patrick's day parades (Doherty of the New York parade, the largest in the world, Artt and Smyth of San Francisco, etc). Even after 9/11, in 2002 a convicted IRA terrorist was Grand Marshall of the parade in Rockland County, New York.

[Chairboy]

Originally posted by lazs2
subaru... your example is fine except... that anti abortion guy did not strap a bunch of explosives on himself and blow up the run of the mill everyday citizen... he targeted abortion doctors and clinics.

That still makes him a murderer but... not much danger to me unless I am in an abortion clinic or an abortion doctor.   He doesn't have a training school that is saying that all the people in the U.S. have to die untill they convert to his faith/reasoning.

Let me get this right....  since he was 'only' targeting abortion doctors, and since you were not personally at risk as a result because you don't hang out at abortion clinics, it's not as big a deal?

I find a curious dichotomy in this statement.  I'm an atheist, and I have a personal system of what I consider right and wrong that seems to work pretty good for me.  It says that I don't need to feel personally threatened by something to see it as right or wrong.

The action itself should stand on its own merit to be judged.

The deafening silence in the christian community against abortion doctor murders and clinic bombers is very troubling, and rather telling.  Despite what you say at the bottom of your post above, the christian clinic bombers ARE killing until people convert to their reasoning on the subject.  That's the whole idea behind bombing the clinics.

Before throwing rocks, make sure your house isn't made out of glass.

[Seeker]

Originally posted by lazs2
I think that what we are all missing here is the degree...  No other terrorist group has been so affiliated with a religion and has done so much horrific damage.


lazs

That's not quite true; Laz. The IRA is most definately identified with religion: Catholicism; just as their arch rivals; the UDA (Ulster defense assocsiation) are equally indivisible from thier religion: Anglicanism.

Both are succoured by priests; indeed the UDA is led by one.

I've never heard any religious body; Catholic nor Anglican; decry thier activities other than bland platitudes immeadatly after yet another parent has been blown away in front of his/her kids or particularly graphic pix of kiddies limbs are shown on T.V.

As to degree; the number of deaths due to these groups is higher than the number of American victims of terrorism; up to and including a direct assault on the British government.

However; whilst we've been talking about Bush's "war on terror" for a couple of years now; I've still not seen your government nor ours formaly announce that they will no longer _them selves_ use terror to further their aims.

And if the nuclear powered leaders of "TWOT" refuse to give up this particular means of waging war; why should they expect any one else to?

[Gunslinger]

sorry if I offended anyone but those are my beleifs.  The "war on Terror" is a joke to say the least it should be called the "war on radical islam"

The problem with radical islam is the other "peacfull muslims" seem to by sympothetic to them and the fringe media paint them as freedom fighters vrs terrorists.

lets not suger coat this, basic Islam:

1. seeks extermination of the jews
2. seeks global domination with their way of life as the ideal
3. totally intolerant of those whose lifestyle and views differ from theirs.

does that sound familiar anyone??????

please do not think I'm flaiming or trolling here.  The latest bombing in london has put me over the edge when it comes to Islam.

Here you have the most tolerant and accepting of places for muslims (london) and what do they do?  Western culture is 10 times more tolerant and accepting of arab and muslim culture yet WE are the ones to blame according to them.  We are the ones that are at fualt because they can't assimilate into the 21st century.  It is OUR fault that they are losing their culture and have to resort to violence to retain it.  PRAISE ALLAH AND PASS THE AK47!!!!  (I hope some of you get that)

PS the photo I posted was not a photshop that was really a guy holding a grenade in one hand and a koran in the other.

what makes it worse is you will hardly hear any outcry from most notable muslim leaders when their own blow up a school bus full of kids....even if they are arab.  That's a pretty hate filled way to live if you ask me.

Again my appologies if the previous picture went overboard.

[GtoRA2]

Originally posted by Nashwan
Noraid was the main fundraiser for the IRA in the 70s and 80s. After a court battle it was forced to register as an agent for the IRA, to make it explicitly known that that was where the money they were raising was going.

There were also a string of arms smuggling convictions against Noraid members and their associates.

Escaped terrorist murderers like Joe Doherty were made Grand Marshalls of St Patrick's day parades (Doherty of the New York parade, the largest in the world, Artt and Smyth of San Francisco, etc). Even after 9/11, in 2002 a convicted IRA terrorist was Grand Marshall of the parade in Rockland County, New York.

That is digusting and shamefull.  Sorry about that Brits.

[Gunthr]

Choirboy, mainstream Christians do speak out against murder of abortion doctors .... it just isn't as much of a world wide issue like Islamist terrorism.  

I'm pessimistic about the whole ball of wax.  I don't see ANY complete solution for this problem -  there is nothing we can do or not do that will appease Muslim extremists.  All we can do is try to mitigate the threats, try to minimize our vulnerabilities.  

The attacks will continue.  We will see more Muslims speaking out against terrorism as time and terrorist attacks continue.  We will also see a backlash against Muslims in general as Islamist terrorist attacks continue.  At the same time, some moderate Muslims may react to any backlash by becoming more extreme.  I really think that this clash is part of bin Laden's intentions.

We don't really even need to debate this, or ponder it, or worry about which way things will go.

Terrorist attacks, which have proven to be very effective, will continue.  Societies all over the world will inevevitably change in response to it.  Its already started.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by cpxxx
In the other thread you came across all offended at my supposed ASSumptions. Yet here we are in a new thread and there it is in a far more expiicit form.

 

 

It seems my reading and comprehension is not so bad after all.

I'll quote myself

 

 The problem for Muslims right now is that the can't win. In spite of the fact the most people killed by Al Qaeda are in fact Muslim (Shia) in Iraq. Even if they hate what is happening. They are implicated by ignorant people and will be targeted by some.

Oh, but Muslims CAN win. You fail repeatedly to acknowledge that for DECADES the "mainstream" Muslim community has tolerated and to some degree even encouraged extremism. The London attack is without question a PERFECT example. Note that as it stands now, the investigation has determined that four members of the mainstream Muslim community were the ones who carried out the attacks. Further, they were supposedly indoctrinated by one or more Muslim extremists operating within the mainstream Muslim community. Therefore, the mainstream Muslim community is AT LEAST somewhat responsible, having allowed the extremists to live among them and recruit their children to become homicide bombers. The Muslim community publicly acknowledges that these extremists exist and operate in plain sight.

You took a few quotes out of context to prove your point.

In the thread you speak of, YOU CLAIMED I was advocating blowing up Muslim cities and rounding up Muslims in REVENGE for the attacks.

That assumption is just as false and baseless here as it was there.

Again, nowhere have I said anything about rounding up anyone, or blowing up anything.

I do however expect the Muslims to ACT on their rhetoric. I expect, and well within reason, that they do EVERYTHING within their power to police their community. Just as I expect anyone who is associated with the anti abortion movement to turn in ANYONE who might be planning or advocating violence. Or anyone within the 2nd Amendment supporters to turn in the radical morons that infest the fringes of that group.

And YES, I stand by my postion that if you knowingly harbor people who either commit or encourage extremist violence, you are as guilty as any of them are. You knew about it and you allowed it to happen, you might just as well have built the bomb, or worn it, or pressed the button. Just like any other crime, if you know about it and you allow it to happen, you are guilty of being in the conspiracy. Since the cfrime in question is MURDER, that makes ANYONE who knew about it and did nothing guilty of conspiracy to commit murder.

Now, go show me if you can, any quote from any post by me in either where I advocate blowing up anything or rounding anyone up. Because THAT is what YOU claim.

[Clifra Jones]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
sorry if I offended anyone but those are my beleifs.  The "war on Terror" is a joke to say the least it should be called the "war on radical islam"
 

Should it? Does this mean we let every other terrorist group off the hook because they are not Muslims?

Do we leave Columbia(narco terrorists), Spain(ETA), Britain(IRA), The Phillipines(leftist terrorists), etc. on thier own?

I say no, they are all the same and should be treated the same.

One man's terrorist is NOT another mans freedom fighter. they are all terrorists!

lets not suger coat this, basic Islam:

1. seeks extermination of the jews
2. seeks global domination with their way of life as the ideal
3. totally intolerant of those whose lifestyle and views differ from theirs.

does that sound familiar anyone??????

Yes it does. I little known fact is that a lot of mid-upper level NAZIs escaped Germany and fled to the middle east. It's no surprise that some the best selling books in the middle east is Mien Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.