Author Topic: Ki84  (Read 5070 times)

Offline Widewing

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Ki84
« Reply #105 on: August 01, 2005, 08:21:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan
Its a Ki-61 airframe with a  Ha-112-H radial engine. There were Ki-61 airframes waiting on the Ha-140. The factory producing the  Ha-140 was bombed by B-29s and production disrupted.

They decided to mate the Ki-61 airframes to the radial Ha-112.

A couple of quotes (I can't verify their accurracy...)


Quote
It possessed a definite ascendancy over the Grumman F6F Hellcat. In one encounter over Okinawa, a Ki-100-equipped unit destroyed 14 F6F Hellcat fighters without loss to themselves. When the Ki-100 encountered the P-51D Mustang at low or medium altitudes over Japan, it was able to meet the American fighter on more or less equal terms. The outcome of P- 51D vs Ki-100 battles was usually determined by piloting skill or by numerical advantage rather than by the relative merits of the two fighter types. However, at altitudes above 26,000 feet, the maneuverability of the Ki-100 began to fall off rather severely and the fighter was at a relative disadvantage in intercepting the high-flying B-29.


For starters, I cannot find a single case at Okinawa where 14 Hellcats were lost in one day, to ALL CAUSES, much less to a fighter that was only just entering service.

I've read similar stuff on the web and in badly researched books.
Emmanual Gustin's site repeats what I believe Rene J. Francillon  claims in his book of 14 Hellcats killed by Ki-100s without loss. Naturally, NO ONE can produce any combat records to prove it. That's understandable, because it never happened. Several years ago, I went through Navy squadron AARs looking for any reference to combat between the F6F and the Kawasaki. I found only one. I also found no JAAF units flying the Ki-100 at Okinawa. Probably because the first Ki-100 didn't fly until February of 1945 with first deliveries not beginning until late March. By mid March, the only things flying from Okinawa were seagulls, and they had to watch their tails too.

Historian Henry Sakaida states in his Osprey book, " The Ki-100-I-Otsu was undoubtably one of the best piston-engine fighters of World War 2". Frankly, I think old Henry was being a bit delusional. Wishful thinking at best. It would have been a first-rate fighter had it appeared in early 1942. However, when it did appear in early spring of 1945 is was hopelessly out-classed.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Wotan

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Ki84
« Reply #106 on: August 01, 2005, 08:44:37 PM »
Quote
(I can't verify their accurracy...)
[/b]

Offline Wotan

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Ki84
« Reply #107 on: August 01, 2005, 08:58:51 PM »
I don't presume to know much about Ki-61/Ki-100 development but what I have read from Japanese pilots was that the Ki-100 was well liked and in a lot of cases preferred over the Ki-61-II. I don't know if the reasons were the reliability problems with the Ha-140 or what (maybe Mitsu can answer). It was only marginally faster then the Ki-61... Same with its climbrate

At a max speed of 360 mph I don't see how it could have been considered the 'best' at anything. I certainly can't see it as much of a bomber interceptor... However, as I said its reputation among the folks who flew it was high.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #108 on: August 02, 2005, 12:38:22 AM »
I think the Ki-100 being considered the best fighter is taking reliabilty into account.  In most sims we don't deal with that and so the Ki-84 gets to shine, whereas in reality it was the best if it worked and that was a big "if".

FYI, the Ki-100 only had 1% greater frontal area than did the Ki-61 so there was not much drag added.  Takeo Doi, the lead engineer on the Ki-61 and the leading proponent of liquid cooled engines in fighters in Japan, did a masterful job in converting the Ki-61 to take the Ha-112 engine in only 12 weeks.  Must have been an unpleasant job for him though given his fondness of liquid cooling.

I would rather see the Ki-61-II and the Ki-44-II added than the Ki-100.
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Offline justin_g

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Ki84
« Reply #109 on: August 02, 2005, 09:13:18 AM »
There were only ~70 complete Ki-61-II built vs ~395 Ki-100. Combine those numbers with the poor reliability of the Ha-140 engine and it seems doubtful that the Ki-61-II was flown in any significant numbers at all. Then again; just how many Ta-152H-1 made it into service? ;)

Offline rshubert

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Ki84
« Reply #110 on: August 02, 2005, 10:10:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan
Its a Ki-61 airframe with a  Ha-112-H radial engine. There were Ki-61 airframes waiting on the Ha-140. The factory producing the  Ha-140 was bombed by B-29s and production disrupted.

They decided to mate the Ki-61 airframes to the radial Ha-112.

A couple of quotes (I can't verify their accurracy...)


The words "highly unlikely" come to mind, especially that one about 14 F6Fs going down on one day over Okinawa.  US Squadron records are pretty accurate, and I'll bet you can't find a day over Okinawa when we lost 14 fighters.

Offline Wotan

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Ki84
« Reply #111 on: August 02, 2005, 10:18:11 AM »
Quote
I'll bet you can't find a day over Okinawa when we lost 14 fighters.


Who is 'we'? Were you there?

Anyway, as I stated in the quote you posted and as I have re-quoted in reply to Widewing:

Quote
(I can't verify their accurracy...)

Offline dedalos

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Ki84
« Reply #112 on: August 02, 2005, 12:16:53 PM »
Off topick.

The thing I love the most about the Ki.  P38 pilots don't know what to do when they see their endless looping does not work.  Then they try to turn.  Finally, they try to dive away :lol
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Krusty

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Ki84
« Reply #113 on: August 04, 2005, 06:21:16 PM »
It's great, isn't it, Dedalos? :P

P38s were all I used to see before the ki84 came out. It was "the fad" to just take a p38, and do nothing but loop other planes into a bored death. But once the Ki came in I found I could easily keep pace with the 38s and it was my new best ride for 38 killing. After the Ki came out I also noticed a LOT less P38s in the air!! LOL!!!

Before the Ki I was able to use a 109 to some extent, but the Ki zooms and climbs better, and turns tighter so it does the job with flying colors.

Offline Mitsu

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Ki84
« Reply #114 on: August 04, 2005, 08:53:44 PM »
I think why Japanese pilots loved the Ki-100, is its maneuverability and durability.

BTW the Ki-100 had 2x20mm CAN (250rds*2) and 2x12.7mm MG (250rds*2). 500 20mm ammo is enough for killing planes, isn't it?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 08:56:39 PM by Mitsu »

Offline 1K3

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Ki84
« Reply #115 on: August 04, 2005, 10:27:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
It's great, isn't it, Dedalos? :P

P38s were all I used to see before the ki84 came out. It was "the fad" to just take a p38, and do nothing but loop other planes into a bored death. But once the Ki came in I found I could easily keep pace with the 38s and it was my new best ride for 38 killing. After the Ki came out I also noticed a LOT less P38s in the air!! LOL!!!

Before the Ki I was able to use a 109 to some extent, but the Ki zooms and climbs better, and turns tighter so it does the job with flying colors.


believe it or not, but if your AUTO COMBAT TRIM is off, you'll get the most out of teh Ki-84, 109, or any plane by setting them neutral.

PS my elevator trim is set at dead center, rudder and ailerons make sure its set balance for med-hi speeds and fine tune it so teh plane wont go side-slipping or roll by itself

Offline Widewing

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Ki84
« Reply #116 on: August 04, 2005, 10:29:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mitsu
I think why Japanese pilots loved the Ki-100, is its maneuverability and durability.

BTW the Ki-100 had 2x20mm CAN (250rds*2) and 2x12.7mm MG (250rds*2). 500 20mm ammo is enough for killing planes, isn't it?


Yeah, if you can actually get close enough to one!   ;)


By the way, it's great to have you back Mitsu.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Kweassa

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Ki84
« Reply #117 on: August 05, 2005, 01:20:06 AM »
Quote
The thing I love the most about the Ki. P38 pilots don't know what to do when they see their endless looping does not work. Then they try to turn. Finally, they try to dive away


 Well.. that would be if the Ki84 can survive the first two~three loops with a P-38 until it becomes a contest of the 'patented super-low speed tight-looping'.

 The Ki-84 is probably the only plane which can play the P-38 at its own game, better than any other in the set... but it still can be a tough challenge depending on the pilot.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2005, 01:23:36 AM by Kweassa »

Offline FTJR

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what about the spits?
« Reply #118 on: August 05, 2005, 03:22:50 AM »
So how do you handle spits in a ki?
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Offline Karnak

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Re: what about the spits?
« Reply #119 on: August 05, 2005, 10:26:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by FTJR
So how do you handle spits in a ki?

Against the current Mk Vb and F.Mk IX I simply out power them and use tight spiral climbs with flaps out to get above them.  Then I kill them at leisure.

When/if we get the LF.Mk VIII and LF.Mk XVI I don't know.  It will depend on how capable those fighters prove to be.

After flying the Mk XIV on Tuesday I think the Ki-84 has some very large advantages over it as long as the Spit XIV does not go for the straight power BnZ.  If it does that the Ki-84 needs to be good at dodging as there is no way for the Ki-84 to match the Spit XIV in that kind of fight.
Petals floating by,
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