Author Topic: Ki84  (Read 4815 times)

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Ki84
« Reply #75 on: July 26, 2005, 11:02:01 AM »
I need to start learning to film my sorties dang it.

Flew two Ki-84 sorties last night.  First one I ended up in a duel against an N1K2-J and a P-51D while trying to protect a squady's B-24s on a bomb run.  I drew it out for about five minutes, and almost got the N1K2 and the P-51 several times, but in the end the P-51 managed to make a shot happen.

Second sortie was a long one with one rearm for bombs.  I had some good fights in that one, including taking out a Spit IX and a Hurri IIc with just the cowl guns.  Also got a C-47 with them on my way home.  All told I think that was probably my most destructive Ki-84 flight to date, one VH, four AA guns, five town buildings, three Hurricane Mk IICs, one Seafire Mk IIc, one Spitfire Mk IX and one C-47A.  If I'd filmed it I'd have looked for a way to post it, even though it did show me try to vulch a Hurri unsuccesfully as my angle was bad and the rounds landed behind him just as he lifted.

Ah well.  Unless I start filming regularly I'll never catch the good fights.  I'm not good enough to produce them regularly though.

Still, that fight did remind me why I like the Ki-84 so much.  It is quite possibly the best all round fighter in AH, even better than the ubiquitous Spitfire Mk V and Mk IX.  It has few really weak points and several very strong points.  It seems much more a pure fighter than a fighter-bomber hybrid like so many other fighters.  Nor is it an interceptor giving everything to climb and flat out speed.  It is built to get in a tight situation and make a mess out of the enemy that tries to match it's manueverability.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Karash

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 126
Ki84
« Reply #76 on: July 26, 2005, 12:39:04 PM »
I have been flying the Frank for almost 3 months now (about the same time I have played AH2, this is my first flight sim).  The combat trim point is very valid, as you do not get anywhere near the combat potential of this plane if you have combat trim and the stall limiter enabled.  A squaddy named Despair taught me a few things about that, and I am a lucky dweeb for it.

I too have a love affair with this plane, but I am seeing more and more of them in the sky now (still not in large numbers).  Typically I can get 2 or 3 kills before I have to land, unless I run into someone like Stang or Silat.  The B and C version would be great to have, but I would perk it if its all cannons...about the same as the C hog.

Great thread!

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Ki84
« Reply #77 on: July 26, 2005, 01:35:32 PM »
Turns as good as Spitfires.. but still as fast as P-38L at deck. That about says all! :)

 One distinct weakness is the tendency to flat spin at low speed verticals... which you gotta be prepared for. When speed drops around 100mph, pull thos flaps up, tilt the plane to one side slightly so it can naturally tip over. Don't mess with the throttle, and don't leave the flaps down - insta flat spin!

Offline FTJR

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1996
Ki84
« Reply #78 on: July 27, 2005, 01:45:59 AM »
The ki.. I'm addicted to it, not good at it, just addicted :).

The thing I like about the flat spin.. Noone can hit you :)

The bad thing is the sudden stop at the bottom "(

Thanks for the tip Kweassa
Bring the Beaufighter to Aces High
Raw Prawns      

B.O.S.S. "Beaufighter Operator Support Services" 
Storms and Aeroplanes dont mix

Offline Wilbus

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4472
Ki84
« Reply #79 on: July 27, 2005, 04:47:17 AM »
LOL @ JR!

I've gotten into the flat spin only once online. It was after zooming up with an enemy plane, my speed dropped and I forgot the check how long. I killed the enemy and to my surprise I had been flying backwards when I killed him. I've practiced the backward flying in the Ki offline but never gotten out of the following flatspin. This time I did though, somehow some way I got out of it.

I've not sure I agree with Kweassa, some of my vertical moves drop as low as 20mph without flatspin. Gotten really used to the plane.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Ki84
« Reply #80 on: July 27, 2005, 06:56:21 AM »
It depends on the recovery process Wilbuz. You probably instinctively recover well :D However, for most of us sucky pilots, all we do is go straight up, pull flaps out, and wait until the plane tips itself over...

 ...except in the Ki (or the Ta152, as a matter of fact!), this is a deathtrap. The plane seems to tip itself over, and then bam! suddenly at the top of the vertical, you feel the plane slipping sideways to yaw direction.. and then it just falls straight down.

 The only way to get out of it is retract all flaps, push stick forward full, turn off engine, and kick rudders around so your plane gains some sideways momentum, and ultimately somehow the nose swings downwards. With a bit of practice you can recover from this gruesome flat spin in about 15 seconds.

 So, after dying again and again from flat spins I finally learned to watch my speed, keep controlling the plane minutely with rudder, and be prepared go into recovery action ASAP.

Offline Urchin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5517
Ki84
« Reply #81 on: July 27, 2005, 07:08:15 AM »
That is kind of odd.  I've had the behaviour mentioned above happen to me in a 110, but never a Ki-84, and I flew the ki-84 pretty exclusively for a few months.

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Ki84
« Reply #82 on: July 27, 2005, 03:00:34 PM »
Hi again,

With the restrictions on engine performance, was the Ki-84 a worthwhile improvement over the light Ki-44 at all?

Ki-84: 624 km/h @ 6.5 km, 16.4 m/s @ 5.7 km,
Ki-44: 616 km/h @ 5.0 km, 18.5 m/s @ 5.7 km

While the Ki-84 probably was a bit faster above 6 km, the light Ki-44 still climbed better. The Ki-84 with its larger wing probably held the turn rate advantage, but still ...

(All data rough estimates.)

Somewhere, comments from Japanese veterans were posted that expressed a preference for the Ki-44, since it offered similar performance without the engine troubles experienced by the Ki-84.

On the other hand, it seems that the Ki-84 was a big step forward in terms of production efficiency, which might have appealed to the JAF leadership.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Ki84
« Reply #83 on: July 27, 2005, 04:00:13 PM »
For fun I decided to see if there was any noticable usage trends for the Ki-84 as I think it is far more potent than the N1K2-J, yet sees a great deal less use.

Tour 66:
Ki-84-Ia has 6377 Kills of All models
All models have 4134 Kills of Ki-84-Ia

Tour 65:
Ki-84-Ia has 4998 Kills of All models
All models have 3670 Kills of Ki-84-Ia

Tour 64:
Ki-84-Ia has 5107 Kills of All models
All models have 3873 Kills of Ki-84-Ia

Tour 63:
Ki-84-Ia has 6186 Kills of All models
All models have 4204 Kills of Ki-84-Ia

Tour 62:
Ki-84-Ia has 5708 Kills of All models
All models have 4264 Kills of Ki-84-Ia

Tour 61:
Ki-84-Ia has 5825 Kills of All models
All models have 4156 Kills of Ki-84-Ia

Tour 60:
Ki-84-Ia has 5850 Kills of All models
All models have 4289 Kills of Ki-84-Ia

Tour 59:
Ki-84-Ia has 7946 Kills of All models
All models have 5874 Kills of Ki-84-Ia

Tour 58:
Ki-84-Ia has 12680 Kills of All models
All models have 9430 Kills of Ki-84-Ia

Tour 57:
Ki-84-Ia has 113 Kills of All models
All models have 80 Kills of Ki-84-Ia


It seems that after the introductory bump in usage it declined to a low of less than 5,000 kills last tour.  It is up nearly 1,400 kills over that mark this Tour with some time left in it so it may be gaining some notice now.  One thing I notice about it is that it alwasy seems to have a good K/D ratio, even in the first Tour when it is being tried out as something new.

It is a very potent fighter and it is odd that it sees such little usage.  The ENY does need to be raised due to that low usage though.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Wilbus

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4472
Ki84
« Reply #84 on: July 27, 2005, 05:19:40 PM »
Yeah I think the Ki84 has gotten some more attention, I started flying it for real about 1 1/2 week ago, last suterday, before that I rarely saw them.

HoHun, well, same performance, not sure...

Comparing Empty weight power to weight ratio the Ki84 has got 0.75 hp/kg and the Ki44 0.72. This is calculated with a 1990 45/21 engine for the Ki84 though. Seems as if we have a bit weeker engine so the power/weight are probarly quite similair.
Ki84 had better armament.

The real reason for engine troubles for the Ki84, just as the other troubles with it, was non educated personal who built the planes. Basicly, by the time the Ki84 was put into production most of the educated personal had been drafted. Ki84 also suffered from poor landing gear, bad radios etc.

I believe the Ki44 was put in to production around 1941, right? That would be 3 years before the Ki84 where there was still educated people to work on it.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Ki84
« Reply #85 on: July 27, 2005, 05:31:44 PM »
Yeah, the Japanese really "bleeped" up when it came to managing their wartime industry.  Their samurai attitude placing the value of fighting men so far above anything else prevented them from seeing the need to specifically not allow their skilled work force to act as mere conscripts and cannon fodder.  A skilled Nakajima machinist would have done vastly more for their war effort in a Nakajima factory than he did half trained with a rifle in some fetid jungle.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Spongebob

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 64
Ki84
« Reply #86 on: July 27, 2005, 05:52:20 PM »
Holy crap, now I have to go look up "Fetid"...

:eek:

Magoo

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Ki84
« Reply #87 on: July 27, 2005, 05:55:35 PM »
Hi Wilbus,

>Comparing Empty weight power to weight ratio the Ki84 has got 0.75 hp/kg and the Ki44 0.72. This is calculated with a 1990 45/21 engine for the Ki84 though.

Hm, I'm using the following values (peak power at low gear full throttle height):

Ki-84: 1650 HP @ 2600 m (2900 rpm), 3608 kg
Ki-44: 1575 HP @ 2000 m (2650 rpm), 2764 kg

The Ki-44 power is from TAIC, so I can't be sure it's not too high maybe. It matches the Japanese climb figures, though.

>Ki84 had better armament.

True, but the Ki-44 seems to hav been able to carry 2 x 20 mm cannon, too (albeit it seems it never did so operationally).

>The real reason for engine troubles for the Ki84, just as the other troubles with it, was non educated personal who built the planes.

Hm, I'm not sure it's not metallurgy as the poor Ki-84 performance seems to be a result of engine problems. You're right on the other operational problems, though.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Ki84
« Reply #88 on: July 27, 2005, 07:50:58 PM »
Quote
Their samurai attitude placing the value of fighting men so far above anything else prevented them from seeing the need to specifically not allow their skilled work force to act as mere conscripts and cannon fodder.


 It's got a lot to do with how warfare was in Asia to really understand this. It doesn't necessarily have to do with the samurai attitude - it runs deeper into the history of society and warfare in Asia, than being just an ideological problem.

 For example, the current Korean military is about the nastiest place for a lively young man in his early 20's to be. Every male is to be conscripted and serve two years of military service.

 The barracks are like the size of a living room in most homes, where about 20 people sleep in cramped up spaces. It's basically what Western people would expect to see in their own prisons. The pay is like 20 bucks for a month of service.

 The conditions are inhumane. Toilets and showers are utterly crappy. Food service is horrible and hardly clean at all. Beatings still occur. People sleep in makeshft barracks where rainfalls can cause landslides and bury everybody inside. There is hardly any welfare associated with being in the military, but still we're forced to suck it up.

 Why? Because defending a country is a duty, and when faced with a duty you aren't supposed to ask questions, or complain. Whatever they tell you to do, you just do it.

 I mean, in modern warfare, would these kind of conscripts make any difference? Look at the way the US military just simply ripped through Iraqui resistance in the war.

 The whole point for the military service in South Korea is that if a war ever breaks out with North Korea, whether the soldiers are ready or not, equipped or not, of high morale or not.. a war is gonna be fought and no young man will  be able to just sit out and wait to be prepared for war. The military is going to throw the soldiers as a buffer in the frontlines. Soldiers aren't trained to fight and survive - they are just trained to fight.

 The key to understanding why people do this kind of stuff, is the key to understanding Japan in the final days of war. It's not just a samurai thing. It's an old Asian habit of warfare that just doesn't die out.

Offline 1K3

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3449
Ki84
« Reply #89 on: July 27, 2005, 08:21:46 PM »
well put!
:aok