Speaking of P-38's and flaps...

[Max]

This problem has plagued me for 10+ years. I'm more or less a B&Z flyer though I love mixing it up in a good T&B dogfite  every once and awhile. When flying a B&Z plane I use flaps to get over the top or accelerate an oblique turn. BUT, put me in a P-38 or Spit, whenever I drop flaps and try to out turn the "other" guy, I always get into trouble...i.e. almost any pitch or yaw input seems to over-accentuate and kicks my prettythang into the ground.

Yes I use rudder...and yes I use 0-10 scaling on pitch and yaw.

Essentially, anytime I use flaps under 150 ias I might as well nosedart my ride. What the heck am I missing or doing wrong?

DmdMax

[Ack-Ack]

Combat trim?




ack-ack

[jetb123]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Combat trim?




ack-ack

 I use combat trim in a 38 and almost never stall out. Just got ot listen to your stall horn. Keep an eye on the enemy if he is turning inside your loop thats when you either try to push to max without dying. Or try something else.

[Messiah]

Originally posted by jetb123
Just got ot listen to your stall horn.  

Don't rely on just one sense grasshopper, you must use all of them if you truly wish to snatch zee fly with chopsticks.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by jetb123
I use combat trim in a 38 and almost never stall out. Just got ot listen to your stall horn. Keep an eye on the enemy if he is turning inside your loop thats when you either try to push to max without dying. Or try something else.

You don't need combat trim to keep you from stalling out, you get the "feel" of that with time.

This is an excerpt of an article Lephturn wrote when Combat Trim was introduced.  

The most important thing to understand about CT is it's limitations. CT does not work immediately or exactly, it does not work well at very high or very low speeds, and it does not take into account things like flaps. Basically, CT is simply a table of pre-generated trim settings for various airspeeds with the aircraft in a clean condition.

The full article can be found here.

So basically, Combat Trim will actually try to compensate for the lift generated by the flaps.  This is why the dive flaps get rendered useless with Combat Trim engaged.  The window where combat trim is effective is so small that the P-38 does not gain any real advantage for using it and can in the end hinder you.  That's why I don't recommend using it.


ack-ack

[Ghosth]

Simple rule Dmax.

Don't drop flaps on anything but US iron.

You'll end up causing more drag which ends up as you described.

Even then when you do drop them, get them right back up again as soon as you are over that top.

Don't try to fly with them on. Don't get into a sustained turn fight with them on.  They'll cause more drag than you gain in manuveribility.

Good 38 drivers are concert pianists.
With flaps going up & down constantly.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by DMax
Essentially, anytime I use flaps under 150 ias I might as well nosedart my ride. What the heck am I missing or doing wrong?

I should be the last one to give advice, but here's something Grits told me that has worked very well.

When using flaps, let the flaps do your work for you.  Don't pull extra Gs, just sort of let the flaps carry you around.  I had been dropping flaps and pulling as tight as I could, experiencing the same sort of uncontrollable stall as you've described.

Probably you already knew this.  But I didn't, so just in case....

- oldman

[MaddogJoe]

Like ack-ack said, combat trim will try to kill any effect the flaps have, there by throwing you into those spins and stalls.

Jet, with you flying a 38 WITH CT on and riding the stall buzzer, and a half decent 38 jock running WITH-OUT CT on, you will get creamed every time. With the CT on your forced to a wider turn riding the stall buzzer where the guy with out the CT on can go past that point due to the CT not re-triming the plane, so your stall buzzer will come on much later.
 
Try turning with-out the CT on, you'll be surprized at how much faster you'll get around, and the slower speeds you'll be able to do it at.

[Clip121]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
You don't need combat trim to keep you from stalling out, you get the "feel" of that with time.

This is an excerpt of an article Lephturn wrote when Combat Trim was introduced.  



The full article can be found here.

So basically, Combat Trim will actually try to compensate for the lift generated by the flaps.  This is why the dive flaps get rendered useless with Combat Trim engaged.  The window where combat trim is effective is so small that the P-38 does not gain any real advantage for using it and can in the end hinder you.  That's why I don't recommend using it.


ack-ack

ack-ack,

     Is there a certain setting you usefor the flaps or are you adjusting them as you go?  I have been told to go into a shallow dive and adjust, then leave them like so.

[Widewing]

Here's a 2 minute film showing a P-38G fighting a SpitV. Watch the flaps go down and up and down a bit, then up again, until they need to remain down...

Film

My regards,

Widewing

[Clip121]

Originally posted by Clip121
ack-ack,

     Is there a certain setting you usefor the flaps or are you adjusting them as you go?  I have been told to go into a shallow dive and adjust, then leave them like so.

Ahhhh, i see I asked for certain settings for flaps but what I meant was trim.....  I appreciate the response Widewing and will watch the film!

[Vudak]

Ok, so turning off CT might be a new big step for me personally...  Only one problem - I only have two trim dials.

Which ones are the ones I definately need?  Is there one that is not likely to be used as much?

[Ack-Ack]

If you're talking about the dials on your joystick, in most sticks those are from trimming the axis of the joystick and not for trimming flight controls.  I know there are some like the Thrustmaster Cougar that allows you to bind flight control trim to the dials on the stick.

As for flight trims, the only one you really to adjust the elevator trim and that is only in certain situations.  Myself, I keep my elevator trim at neutral which is now easier to set since the P-38's dials were redone and now there is a neutral tick on the trim indicators.


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Clip121
Ahhhh, i see I asked for certain settings for flaps but what I meant was trim.....  I appreciate the response Widewing and will watch the film!

I keep my elevator trimmed to neutral as much as possible.   The only time I really ever adjust it is to extend a vertical zoom.


ack-ack

[Galahad]

I too do not get flaps.  I know when you go up and get slower to engage the flaps.  What I don't understand is when to deploy them.  Is this done by feel?.....someone has told me to deploy them at certain speeds,,,,I find this suggestion to be very impractical in a fight.  I watched the film by Widewing and saw he deployed his flaps (about three notches)....I usually fly the J model and not the G,,,,,does this make a difference?  Also when do you retract your flaps ...I know that when you are going  down/faster to pull them in but precisely at what point?.... or do you just use the auto retract feature?  


Galahad:confused: