Author Topic: Rubber Bullets (Read 3539 times)

Shane · « **Reply #30 on:** July 25, 2005, 10:15:56 PM »

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Originally posted by lasersailor184
No, that's a common misconception. And since you're very common I can see how it will trip you up.
It's not like playing on a 14 baud modem will give you god mode. All of the planes flying around him will be jumping around like crazy. Any slight change in flight path you make will be a huge jump on his end. Not to mention packet loss...

no they won't. you're confusing latency with packet loss. go back and reveiw internet connections for dummies.

you can have an extremely stable (no packet loss) connection with high latency.

conversely you can have a blazing high speed braodband connect that is experience packet loss.

BTW · « **Reply #31 on:** July 25, 2005, 10:41:58 PM »

Er Lynx, if it takes all that, its a design problem. There's a better way to do it - believe me, i did this for a living.

thats not a put down - I just don't think it takes all that. I think its mistaken expectations of damag or perhaps lost packets. But if fiddling with resolution matters, the disign is messed up- botched

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #32 on:** July 25, 2005, 11:05:41 PM »

No Shane. The rate of information would only detract from gameplay. Not make it easier.

That's the reason why when you lag things jump around. Because the rate of information flow cannot keep up to the pace of flying in Aces High.

I wasn't saying that Packet loss was the source of the problem. I was just saying that it doesn't help.

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #33 on:** July 25, 2005, 11:29:33 PM »

Chat lag also causes rubber bullets.

ack-ack

Shane · « **Reply #34 on:** July 26, 2005, 12:01:56 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lasersailor184
No Shane. The rate of information would only detract from gameplay. Not make it easier.
That's the reason why when you lag things jump around. Because the rate of information flow cannot keep up to the pace of flying in Aces High.
I wasn't saying that Packet loss was the source of the problem. I was just saying that it doesn't help.

sigh...

show me the jumping? i was smooth as silk on his end too. i'm not talking about performance lag on one's PC handling all the data (due to not enough ram/vidcard/various settings/running too much junk/spyware/etc - things that interfere with CPU cyles) , but rather latency on internet routing.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/170_1122254708_film100.zip

now for illustrative purposes, my usual ping (based on the login screen) is about 60ms. BGB's says his is around 200ms.

that's not major serious lag and is totally acceptable for gameplay according to HT and Skuzzy... however it does make action like this more difficult. HTC packets are the same size regardless of one's pipeline or routing.

The worst i've encountered was Fariz (connecting from Russia at 700ms is a similar setting. he was also smooth as silk, as was i to him. yet after i found out what his latency was i simply adjusted and delayed my own moves until i was able to acquire his six after quite a few turns. it took longer because i had to anticiapte him seeing me further away than i currently was. 200ms is a lot more difficult to judge.

watching the film in external you'll see no sprites on my end (i'm sure bgb saw them on his) - and you'll clearly see the tracers going well behind me.

when i said it's harder for me to deal with than bgb, think about that.... the only advantage a faster connect may have is in a HO situation or massive furball blazing thru for cherrys. fighting someone with a slower connect throws off your timing. they know that i'm closer than i appear to them and can react accordingly at a longer distance (on their end). while it's a lot harder to reverse that and allow them to get even closer (on my end) before reacting. see the difference yet?

it's because i am good enough and have played this type of online game long enough that i can easily identify when i'm up against someone with higher latency - unfortunately ususally after the fact that i was just shot down (and it's almost impossible to ID plenty beforehand in the MA) - i take hits when i'm 95% of the time clear (on my end) from their guns solution.

i ride it so close to the edge with finessed timing that my margin for error is very small - that's part of why i'm successful at what i do.

just sayin'

no slam on bgb, he does have clues about how to fly.

i'm also saying that about 2.5 years ago i did some experimentation with people who had 300ms lag to my still around 40ms. the perceived distance discrepancy was a lot smaller than it currently is (netcoding?). now whether something actually changed or whether it's merely a result of the increased traffic, i dunno. but it is there.

Shane · « **Reply #35 on:** July 26, 2005, 12:04:25 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Chat lag also causes rubber bullets.
ack-ack

that's because the chat and damage updates share the same server, while the flight position updates seem to use a different server (or different part of the program on the same server) and is unaffected. usually when the chat/damage is lagging, so is login.

this is what i've been able to see from my perspective and research, along with some inferences about how things seem to operate.

Howitzer · « **Reply #36 on:** July 26, 2005, 12:31:34 AM »

I had a run in a tempest last month where I lit up about 3 planes only to see minimal damage. On the first pass on the jug I encountered, I counted 15+ sprites all over the plane as I passed him. When he pulled up all he has was a gas leak. The whole run was that way. Just seemed odd. I checked my hit % as that is something I'm trying to work on, and I felt I landed quite a few shots that run, but my percentage dropped quite a bit.

I guess it is just one of those things, maybe sometime I'll get lucky and get it on film.

Magoo · « **Reply #37 on:** July 26, 2005, 10:04:55 AM »

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Well, you shouldn't be firing different types of rounds at the same time.

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And btw never fire your MG with the 37mm.

Geez, who let out the Weapon Nazis?

OK Just kidding...dudes, I was just pointing out what could be misleading to SuperDud. I personally don't have a problem with MG hits while flying the Yak9T. I usually get in reeeel close unless it's a buff (which presents a bigger target). You don't have the ammo to afford any longer shots, although those cannons can hit from a good ways out and certain situations may warrant a long shot. As I said, on snapshots I just know that sometimes I'll only land MGs hits. It's an assumed risk when flying the Yak9T.

Laser Sailor, I think your gonna lose the debate with Shane. Outside of being a bombastic ass, he knows his shiot.

So Shane, in an example where I am being chased by a guy that appears to be in lag pursuit only to start taking pings from him, then his ping time must be much lower than mine. This is curious at first glance because I usually get a ping time to the MA of around 60 ms. Having said this, and considering the available causes, I must have had a spike in my ping time, since it's unlikely the other guy is gonna get lower than 60 ms.

On similar topic, has anyone else had their ping to the MA go up recently? I was getting 60 ms reliably up until the last week or so and now im sitting dead on 100 ms every time I log in. It is a steady 100 ms so all in all it's not a bad thing. Just wondering.

Magoo

Shane · « **Reply #38 on:** July 26, 2005, 10:25:59 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Magoo
So Shane, in an example where I am being chased by a guy that appears to be in lag pursuit only to start taking pings from him, then his ping time must be much lower than mine. This is curious at first glance because I usually get a ping time to the MA of around 60 ms. Having said this, and considering the available causes, I must have had a spike in my ping time, since it's unlikely the other guy is gonna get lower than 60 ms.

On similar topic, has anyone else had their ping to the MA go up recently? I was getting 60 ms reliably up until the last week or so and now im sitting dead on 100 ms every time I log in. It is a steady 100 ms so all in all it's not a bad thing. Just wondering.

Magoo

A) depends on the shot, if it's being taken in a turning lag pursuit that is on it's way to becoming a lead pursuit, you gotta remember the guy is seeing you where you were a fraction of a second ago. so while you may see him at 800 (time to turn and make him miss) he may actually be 1k away in which you just screwed your timing and allowed him to pull into your turn and get some hits in. in your view you thought you squeeked aside, in his view you gave him a nice planform shot. my posted film clearly demonstrates this.

B) at times i do see pings crepping upwards near the 100ms mark, but generally it fluctuates between 47 - 68ms. sometimes the net just gets balky with too much traffic or router issues.

Magoo · « **Reply #39 on:** July 26, 2005, 12:26:58 PM »

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A) depends on the shot, if it's being taken in a turning lag pursuit that is on it's way to becoming a lead pursuit, you gotta remember the guy is seeing you where you were a fraction of a second ago.

Ya, I'm hip to that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your describing the "normal" difference between a dogfight on the internet and RL. For example, in RL (such as what's quoted in Shaw's book and other examples) the pursued knows he's in trouble, when in a turn, he can see the underside of the bad guy when looking back (picture looking at the front of a plane from about 15 degrees below the nose), which means he's pulled lead and has guns resolution - provided you keep turning at the same rate. That's your visual cue that your about to take hits.

On the internet, due to normal lag time between the front ends of the engaged pilots, the visual cue is when you see the bad guy from pretty much straight on while looking back. He's appearing to be in pure pursuit, or almost lead pursuit, on your front end but on his front end (once again due to normal lag time) he's actually in lead pursuit with guns resolution. So in AH your visual cue that your about to take hits, generally speaking, is when the bad guy is pointed straight at you in your rear view (which is actually between pure and lead pursuit).

But to my original question, this guy wasn't even pointed straight at me. I could see the top of his plane (picture looking at the front of the plane with about 15 degrees up angle) and he didn't appear to be gaining any angle in the turn.. I was still looking backwards at this view when I took hits.

Magoo

bustr · « **Reply #40 on:** July 26, 2005, 12:30:12 PM »

Shane,

So from your explanation on latentcy, my attempts to be at 200 before fireing, in reality I may be as much as 1200 from the cons perspective when I open up on him? That can account for sitting on a cons 6 at 200 and never getting a hit on him in a 2 second burst. But at other times being at 600, killing him with a single ping and blowing up seconds later because I flew through his invisible debri.

Thanks for the info. Knowing this makes it funnier now when it happens.

Shane · « **Reply #41 on:** July 26, 2005, 12:49:23 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Magoo

But to my original question, this guy wasn't even pointed straight at me. I could see the top of his plane (picture looking at the front of the plane with about 15 degrees up angle) and he didn't appear to be gaining any angle in the turn.. I was still looking backwards at this view when I took hits.

Magoo

watch the film i posted a few replies up. it's exactly what you are describing, just more in the vertical. me = 60ms he = 200ms.

Shane · « **Reply #42 on:** July 26, 2005, 12:55:15 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by bustr
Shane,

So from your explanation on latentcy, my attempts to be at 200 before fireing, in reality I may be as much as 1200 from the cons perspective when I open up on him? That can account for sitting on a cons 6 at 200 and never getting a hit on him in a 2 second burst. But at other times being at 600, killing him with a single ping and blowing up seconds later because I flew through his invisible debri.

Thanks for the info. Knowing this makes it funnier now when it happens.

ahhh i wouldn't go so far as to say it's that huge a difference of 1k.... but if you're opening up from his 6ish or so at 200 he may be seeing you at 250-400yds if the connect latency discrepancy is big enough.

but....

in this situation from an almost dead 6, it's what shows on your FE that's going to count in terms of hits.. you'll be doing dmg at 200yds while he'll be taking it at 250+ yds. if he jinks out of the way (because you're so close on his 6) he may be taking dmg (based on any hits you scored) when he tought he was hopefully clear. also if the latency is high enough it takes time for the damage to register on his end and then get reported back to you.

this is also why you see people claiming that the faster connect loses ho/rams, because while you see the collision/hits, he's either still clear or slow in getting the damage updates. so you either eat the ram or take his HO damages faster since you're getting the damage updates faster. make sense?

now, if your connect is the slower one in this situation he may be seeing you right on his tail at 50-100 yds and jinking like crazy while you're seeing him do the jinks at 200yds. it's a lot easier to hit stuff at 200 than 50-100 from a dead 6 with jinking involved, no?

connects are a fascinating subject fro me even tho' i'm merely understand it from a layman's perspective. the technical aspects i have very little clue about which is why it amazes me we can even play this kind of game over the internet.

AKFokerFoder+ · « **Reply #43 on:** July 26, 2005, 01:08:53 PM »

Unfortunately I have no film, as I hardly ever turn film on.

But last night, in a PonyB, I shot up about 5 planes, not a part came off, and not a single assist. These were high speed firing passes, all at D400 and under, convergence set to 350 yds. So it isn't like I sat all day on their tails hammering away.

However, later in the night, I took the wing off of a NIKI only using the 303's on a Seafire. I was out of cannons, I vulched him as he was low and turning slow.

I doubt if I would have finised him with 303s in a normal dogfight.

So I have no imperical evidence, but I have a gut feeling that the Pony B's guns seem a lot less effective than before Patch 1.

Magoo · « **Reply #44 on:** July 26, 2005, 02:37:20 PM »

OK...if both connects are identical, say 100 ms and rock steady on both PCs, is the distance shown on both FEs the same at any particular instant? I was under the impression that with all things being equal in a tail chase, the chaser actually shows a little more yardage on his FE compared to the chasee (looking back) at any given instant. The lag is what throws a monkey wrench into who can hit and at what distance from whos FE.

When I'm in the MA I don't panic until the guy is 400 yds off mt six (with Hispanos or 50 cals) because I'm thinking he's more likely showing 500 or more on his (or her) FE and the shooter's FE is the one that counts.

Magoo