Author Topic: A well regulated militia...  (Read 4867 times)

Sandman_SBM

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A well regulated militia...
« on: March 22, 2001, 05:56:00 PM »
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Student, Gunman Wounded at School Near San Diego



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Offline Cabby

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2001, 06:11:00 PM »
And your point(if any)???

Cabby



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Offline Yeager

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2001, 06:13:00 PM »
As individuals we each have a responsibility
to honor and protect the integrity and sanctity of all life.

As a society we must find a solution to these reckless acts against life that do not include the wholesale abandonment of rights enjoyed by all lawful people.

My question is:
Do we have the ability to solve the problem of hatred towards and destruction of life or must we continue with beavioral placebos and watch idly as the tryanny escalates into total chaos?

Y
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

TheWobble

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2001, 06:21:00 PM »
Uh ho, looks like the anti-gun morons had they prayers for another school shooting almost answered again, its time for them to emerge from under their little rocks and squeak and moan and not make any sense as usual.


Keep the guns, lose the criminal/idiots.

i cant believe some IDIOTS still believe that banning guns would actually reduce crime in the US, despite the fact that it has been proven exactly opposite...oh well I guess there couldent be smart people without idiots.

Sandman_SBM

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2001, 06:59:00 PM »
Idiots?

 
Quote
Gun Violence: An International Comparison

The United States has weaker firearm regulations and higher numbers of deaths involving firearms than all other industrialized nations, and even most developing nations according to a 1997 study by the United Nations. The study surveyed 49 nations on their firearm legislation, manufacture, and trade regulations, as well as on their rates of firearm crime and death. The following are some comparisons between the U.S. and other nations, found in this study and others:


The United States is one of only two countries – along with the Czech Republic – that does not have a firearm licensing system.


Thirty-five percent of households in the United States possess at east one firearm, over three times the average of other countries surveyed.


The United States is among only 22% of nations responding to the UN survey that do not have regulations regarding the storage of firearms.


While the United States rarely imports illegal firearms, it is one of only three countries who reported "frequent instances" of illegal ex- portation.


Of illegal handguns seized by the Japanese government from 1992 through 1996, 32.9% were manufactured in the United States, more than any other single country.


The total firearm death rate in the United States in 1995 was 13.7 per 100,000 people, three times the average rate among other responding countries, and the third highest, after Brazil and Jamaica.


In 1995, 1,225 people in the U.S. died from firearm accidents. This figure is over three times higher than the average rate of other responding countries.


The U.S. had the highest firearm suicide rate of all the countries surveyed, 7 per 100,000 people in 1995, nearly seven times greater than the average among other responding countries.


Children in the U.S. are 12 times more likely to die from firearm injury than are children in other industrialized nations.


The United States has the highest firearm death and suicide rates of all other industrialized countries.


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Offline Pongo

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2001, 07:16:00 PM »
What do you mean wobble?

Offline Raubvogel

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2001, 07:40:00 PM »
Everyone focuses on the weapon and forgets the chain of events that led up to the operator of that weapon using it. Where were the parents? How was the child raised. Where were the teachers, the counselors to recognize the warning signs. People don't just get up one day and decide they are going to shoot someone or end their life. There is a series of events that leads up to it.

It is a tragedy to be sure, but everyone wants to look for what they perceive as the easy way out and ban guns. So, the country goes through the debate of gun laws for decades, in the meantime, the social situation worsens. Treat the problems at their source and their wouldn't be a need for further gun control. A disgruntled person without a gun is still disgruntled and dangerous. More effort needs to be made to recognize the high risk individuals and give them the help they need.

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Offline Tac

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2001, 08:02:00 PM »
It means wobble has a lot of guns. The more guns he has the more intelligent he becomes. And we know Wobble dont we?  

Ill scan a picture of this when I can, but here's what the poster says:

IN 1992 HANDGUNS KILLED
33 PEOPLE IN GREAT BRITAIN
36 IN SWEDEN
97 IN SWITZERLAND
60 IN JAPAN
13 IN AUSTRALIA
128 IN CANADA
AND 13,220 IN THE UNITED STATES

GOD BLESS AMERICA

*picture of a revolver painted with stars and stripes*

IMO, we should also allow people to license and carry swords. After all, if you can carry a gun, why cant I carry my blade? Ewps, I forgot, concealing a blade is a felony.


TheWobble

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2001, 09:02:00 PM »
 
Quote
IN 1992 HANDGUNS KILLED
33 PEOPLE IN GREAT BRITAIN
36 IN SWEDEN
97 IN SWITZERLAND
60 IN JAPAN
13 IN AUSTRALIA
128 IN CANADA
AND 13,220 IN THE UNITED STATES


total roadkill data

to think that only 33 people died from handguns is the whole of great britin in an entire year is an utter joke, only belieaveable by idiots who can dillude themselves enough to not have the commin sense to see otherwise.

It is a know fact that GB and the whole of that area distorts and ourtight LIE about their crime stats  to such a degree to make one wonder why its not a crime.


In 1991, when then-Attorney General Richard Thornburgh released the FBI's annual crime statistics, he noted that it is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves. The police, however, are not personal bodyguards. Rather, they act as a general deterrent to crime, both by their presence and by apprehending criminals after the fact. As numerous courts have held, they have no legal obligation to protect anyone in particular. You cannot sue them for failing to prevent you from being the victim of a crime

Florida enacted a uniform concealed-carry law which mandates that county authorities issue a permit to anyone who satisfies certain objective criteria. The law requires that a permit be issued to any applicant who is a resident, at least twenty-one years of age, has no criminal record, no record of alcohol or drug abuse, no history of mental illness, and provides evidence of having satisfactorily completed a firearms safety course offered by the NRA or other competent instructor. The applicant must provide a set of fingerprints, after which the authorities make a background check. The permit must be issued or denied within ninety days, is valid throughout the state, and must be renewed every three years, which provides authorities a regular means of reevaluating whether the permit holder still qualifies.

Passage of this legislation was vehemently opposed by HCI and the media. The law, they said, would lead to citizens shooting each other over everyday disputes involving fender benders, impolite behavior, and other slights to their dignity. Terms like "Florida, the Gunshine State" and "Dodge City East" were coined to suggest that the state, and those seeking passage of the law, were encouraging individuals to act as judge, jury, and executioner in a "Death Wish" society.

No HCI campaign more clearly demonstrates the elitist beliefs underlying the campaign to eradicate gun ownership. Given the qualifications required of permit holders, HCI and the media can only believe that common, law-abiding citizens are seething cauldrons of homicidal rage, ready to kill to avenge any slight to their dignity, eager to seek out and summarily execute the lawless. Only lack of immediate access to a gun restrains them and prevents the blood from flowing in the streets. They are so mentally and morally deficient that they would mistake a permit to carry a weapon in self-defense as a state-sanctioned license to kill at will.

Did the dire predictions come true? Despite the fact that Miami and Dade County have severe problems with the drug trade, the homicide rate fell in Florida following enactment of this law, as it did in Oregon following enactment of similar legislation there. There are, in addition, several documented cases of new permit holders successfully using their weapons to defend themselves. Information from the Florida Department of State shows that, from the beginning of the program in 1987 through June 1993, 160,823 permits have been issued, and only 530, or about 0.33 percent of the applicants, have been denied a permit for failure to satisfy the criteria, indicating that the law is benefitting those whom it was intended to benefit -- the law-abiding. Only 16 permits, less than 1/100th of 1 percent, have been revoked due to the post-issuance commission of a crime involving a firearm.



Other evidence also suggests that armed citizens are very responsible in using guns to defend themselves. Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck, using surveys and other data, has determined that armed citizens defend their lives or property with firearms against criminals approximately 1 million times a year. In 98 percent of these instances, the citizen merely brandishes the weapon or fires a warning shot. Only in 2 percent of the cases do citizens actually shoot their assailants. In defending themselves with their firearms, armed citizens kill 2,000 to 3,000 criminals each year, three times the number killed by the police. A nationwide study by Kates, the constitutional lawyer and criminologist, found that only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The "error rate" for the police, however, was 11 percent, over five times as high.


I know you anti-gun morons will favor your made up toejam over these facts, but thats your PROBLEM

 
Quote
It means wobble has a lot of guns. The more guns he has the more intelligent he becomes. And we know Wobble dont we?

wow the nice anti-gun folks pop in with a personal attack, my my arent we tolerent...or maby its because your data is roadkill and a personal attack is all you can muster  >>???

TheWobble

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2001, 09:33:00 PM »
        A LETTER FROM ENGLAND

Like Roger I was a pistol shooter, I had held a shotgun certificate since 1975 and a firearms certificate since 1979. When it became apparent that my sport was to be destroyed for political gain I decided to make a stand and insist that the police obeyed the law.

Roger is wrong in implying that the police have a right to inspect security, this is a misconception held by many shooters, there is no such right under the law as written by Parliament.

In 1997 my shotgun certificate fell due for renewal and when the police firearms department required an ultra vires security inspection I refused to allow it. At this point I must make it clear that they had been happy with my security arrangements for 18 years and I had received a letter from the Assistant Chief Constable (Firearms) to that effect in 1991. When my certificate expired I lodged vital components of my shotguns with a friend; the law refers only to complete shotguns, not components, so we were both in the clear. This dispute related solely to the renewal of my shotgun certificate.

Eventually a 'civilian' employee of the firearms department arrived, unannounced, at my home and informed me that he had my new certificate and was authorised to give it to me after inspecting my security arrangements. I reiterated that he had no legal right to do so and refused him admission, he departed refusing to hand over the certificate.

If this man was a 'civilian' employee what does this make our police? Military, or Para-military?

Some time later I received a telephone call from the Inspector in charge of the firearms department asking to meet me to discuss the matter and we arranged for him to call on me. On the appointed day he arrived with the force armourer and served notice of revocation of both shotgun and firearm certificates seizing all firearms in my possession and the shotgun components, which were not covered by the law.

I appealed the revocation in court and during the hearing it was revealed, when I referred to the letter from the Assistant Chief Constable, that the police had 'lost' my file and could not verify the fact. The judge summed up as follows:

 "Your interpretation of the law is correct, the police have no right of inspection. I do not see how they can perform their job without inspecting. Appeal dismissed"

I took legal advice and was informed that a further appeal to a higher court would cost at least £5,000 ($7,500), which I could not afford particularly when I was told that it was unlikely that the appeal court would uphold the law either.

Fortunately I had already removed any pistols I was not prepared to lose from the country and now shoot in a, comparatively, free country.

You may have noted that, in this bastion of democracy, neither the police nor the courts uphold the law over their personal prejudices.

Don't let this happen to you. If something has no paper trail DO NOT GIVE IT ONE.

Privileges can be revoked. Rights can not, as George III found out, but they can be suppressed. To regain our rights would take a revolution; how can I emigrate to America?

 Keep up the fight.

 Best wishes,
 Peter Bridgwood.

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Mr Bridgwood is quite correct in saying that it is not a *legal* requirement that the police can inspect gun storage arrangements in the UK, (I've only told you the simplified version).  In practice however, if anyone chooses to stand on their legal rights and not allow such an inspection they will meet the same fate as he did.  The police will unashamedly use force majeur against him and, generally speaking, the courts will back them.  This is the dark underbelly of gun 'control' - apart from the law itself being innately oppressive it allows police officers to make up their own laws without any effective practical redress for the average person.

Briefly, here's another recent 'case study' to emphasize the point.

A retired solicitor (lawyer), not a shooter, owns a .22 rifle for sentimental reasons.  When being interviewed in connection with the renewal of his Firearms Certificate, it comes to light that his mother (in her eighties) has access to the keys for his gun safe.  'She's an unauthorized person,'  says the police officer pompously.  'Change the locks or we'll not renew.'   'Don't be silly,' replies our solicitor, or words to that effect.  However, the Chief Constable is adamant and he refuses to renew the FAC. Our man appeals to Crown Court (expensive) where he loses (as expected). He then goes for a Judicial Review (very expensive - way beyond Mr Average) where he wins.  The Chief Constable however, obviously having no crime to deal with in his area and appalled at the prospect of this eighty year old wresting the .22 rifle from its rack and careening across the county in a reign of terror, insists on going to the Appeal Court (mega expensive) where, ludicrously, he wins.  Our man could then go to the House of Lords but, quite understandably, he has had enough by now, and gives up.  No reproach to him, he fought a good fight and he has at least given us a vivid demonstration of just how ridiculous and vindictive our 'common sense' gun laws are.  

Just as a matter of interest, our man was no small-time lawyer working out in the sticks.  He was a senior partner in the London firm that has for a client no less a person than Her Majesty the Queen.  So much for friends in high places, eh?

Cheers, America.  Keep on slugging.
Roger Taylor


Offline Tac

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2001, 09:35:00 PM »
psst wobble. you forgot to quote the "   " after the "personal attack"  

If you want to contradict the data, write to Handgun Control Inc. 1225 Eye Street , N.W., Washington DC, 20005.

I find it scary of how vehemently folks want to keep their weapons. I've seen what they do firsthand, so I dont want them around or want one. Keep lobbying to keep your toys, ill keep lobbying to have them taken away for good.    

TheWobble

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2001, 09:43:00 PM »
Taken from the UK Daily Telegraph, 7th March 2000


ROYAL LAWYER LOSES GUN PERMIT BATTLE

A retired partner in the Queen's firm of solicitors was properly stripped of
his firearms certificate after he told his 81 year old mother where he kept
the key to his gun safe, three Appeal Court judges ruled yesterday.

The Lord Chief justice, Lord Bingham, said Arthur Farrer had breached the
1989 Firearms Act in failing to keep a secret from his mother.

Mr Farrer's counsel, Mr Richard Beckett, QC, had argued that it ignored
"the real world" to expect gun owners to keep confidential the location of
keys from their closest kin.

Mr Farrer is a former partner at Farrer and Co, the royal solicitors. His
mother lives in a cottage in the grounds of his Essex home in Finchingfield,
Essex, where both he and his brother, James, who lives in Scotland, kept
guns.

Mr Farrer's right to keep the weapons was taken away after police discovered
that he had told his mother where to find the key to his gun cupboard.

His lawyers argued that he had only told his mother where to find the key in
case of an emergency, such as a fire or to help the police in the exercise
of their duties.

Mr Farrer had held a certificate for a .22 rifle since 1961 and a shotgun
licence since 1968. The police never suggested there was any evidence that
his mother ever handled the guns or "expressed any interest in them
whatsoever", the court heard.

Mr Farrer was ordered to pay for the action's heavy legal costs. After his lengthy legal skirmish, he remains convinced that there is an unwritten agenda among civil servants and some senior police officers aimed at ending people's right to "prudent and responsible" ownership of firearms

sorry for the lengthy posts, but posting real data tends to take up more space than stuff you make up.

TheWobble

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2001, 09:48:00 PM »
N.Y. A.G. Eliot Spitzer revises the definition of the word "hypocrite"

The story so far: Basically, it goes like this: Smith & Wesson, the famous gun manufacturer now owned by a British corporation, is blackmailed by the Clinton administration into signing a contract in which it promises to provide trigger locks, "smart gun technology," and tracking of sales (among other things) in exchange for protection from government lawsuits. Other gun companies not only tell Impeached President Clinton to stick it up his ass, but denounce Smith & Wesson as the foreign-owned curs they are. Wholesalers say they will no longer sell their products. Their law firm leaves them. More importantly, thousands of gun owners say they will never buy another Smith and Wesson product as long as they live.

Impeached President Clinton is clearly stung by this attitude and refusal to bend over and accept the Presidential shaft. He circles the wagons around his newly-found friend Smith & Wesson, to protect them against the Evil Gun Lobby. Why is everyone against him? Why, it must be a conspiracy! Enter Eliot Spitzer.

No one really knows what "illegal antitrust activity" might be, since there's no such thing, but this doesn't stop Spitzer.

No fan of the NRA (or freedom, for that matter) Spitzer has declared that he will use his office to bring both gun companies and gun owners in line. ''We have the capacity to squeeze manufacturers like a pincers and hurt them in the marketplace,'' said Spitzer ''We are bigger than the NRA (National Rifle Association).'' On 16 March Spitzer called on local, state and federal government officials to form a coalition that will, in effect, boycott gun manufacturers who fail to adhere to the new "safety code."

Note that when the government arranges it, it's a "boycott," and when anyone else does it, it's "the specter of illegal antitrust activity." Serious stuff, says he

TheWobble

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2001, 09:49:00 PM »
HERE IS FOR ALL YOU WHO WANT TO SEE A HANDGUN COMMIT A CRIME   LIVE!

ITS THE SMITH AND WESSON CAM!
 http://www.frenchu.com/start.html

TheWobble

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2001, 09:50:00 PM »
 
Quote
It wasn't a car or truck. It wasn't boat or a trailer.

It was a Romanian typewriter. Before they left the factory, or entered the country, each one had a sheet of paper carefully insterted and typed on. This sheet was then removed, marked with the model and serial number, and stored away in a Romanian government file cabinet.

Later, if an anti-government tract was discovered, the police could trace the owner of the typewriter through the sheets they had made when it was new, and arrest the author.

"That would never happen here," you say. "We have the Bill of Rights."

"Yeah," reply gun owners. "That's what we thought