A well regulated militia...

[Dowding]

Yeager, Sturm:

It's individualism triumphant over society. The 'I'm alright, Jack' mentality, if you will.

And it's a spreading sickness. The symptoms are an over-litigious body of lawyers, the downright contempt people have for other people and the lack of any compassion for people less well off than themselves. The worship of consumerism and capitalism to a point where the belief that 'money is everything' is saturates everything. It's the vanity that seems to pervades our every waking moment.

I hope it's not terminal.



[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 03-23-2001).]

[Nashwan]

quote:
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It is a know fact that GB and the whole of that area distorts and ourtight LIE about their crime stats to such a degree to make one wonder why its not a crime.
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Wobble, the government would love to be able to distort the crime figures. Since they came to power 4 years ago crime has gone up a lot, and it would suit them to change the figures. They can't. The figures are independantly compiled.
Killings with handguns have increased in Britain following the total ban introduced in 97. 42 people were mudered with a handgun in the period 1999-2000. Britsih gun law was tight before, with licencing and regulation of firearems. The new government banned handguns outright in 97 and gun crime has gone up since then. Obviously if the government were able to change the crime figures handgun deaths would have declined after they banned them in 97.
Just as an example, the area I live in has around 250,000 people. It has one of the highest rates of car crime in Europe, and burgulary and theft are also high. The last shooting incident was in the late 70s, when a security guard was shot in the leg during an attempted robbery.

[batdog]

 20 yrs ago.. or longer there where far LESS gun control laws in effect. There are quite a few now. I see more gun violence now than ever before... why? Because its NOT the wep's... its the people. We need to take a good hard look at our society in general and fiqure out WTF is wrong. These gun control lobbies are simply knee jerk reactions to a problem that we've had for sometime now. Minority's have been terrified for what..20 yrs now by gang violence, drugs etc yet its not a true major issue till a middleclass school gets a taste of what many kids have been dealing with for along time. Once again quite trying to lay the blame on a piece of hardware and see WHY this is happening and DEAL with it.

batdog

[Dowding]

Nashwan - gun crime in the UK is very low, to the point that even if there was a 100% increase, it would be pretty insignificant.

The other day, there was a story on the national news that someone had called the police because they had seen an individual carrying a hand-gun. After a multitude of armed police, police dogs and regular police had swept the area they found a single replica firearm. As long as this continues to be seen as an event demanding national media coverage, I know we have the right approach to the control of fire-arms.

[Tac]

"Tac, what I'm getting at is we need to take a long look at the social situations that push these people to commit the crime. It's much better to prevent a disease than wait and try to stop it later."

Agreed. It IS a social issue after all. But in my view, treating the disease (not preventing because its already there) by injecting more poison into the system (read: guns) is at best, a short-term solution. You cannot stop people from becoming criminals, but you can prevent them from having the tools that would give them power over the average person.
 
"On a side note: Cigarettes kill 400,000 people every year in the United States. Let's ban them while we're at it."

Yep. Notice the great legal battle the tobacco companies fought..and lost in the past years. Its a first step in the right direction.Interesting to note that once the kiddie market was lost, their ad campaigns were increased in foreign nations that dont have such restrictions.

"To punish those who have not violated any laws, caused no harm to another (unlawfully) and are simply living as they see fit under the precepts of the constitution is not an exercise of freedom. It is an exercise of tyranny"

In my view, to endanger those who are living as they see fit by making weapons easily avaliable is an excercise in fear. In the end you will find people not respecting other's rights or property out of respect or civility, but out of fear that the other guy has a weapon (or a bigger one than the one you have). And its not a personal phobia.Its personal experience. Been there, done that, left.

[Sandman_SBM]

I think it's a social issue simply because it sells advertising.

Despite what you see in the main stream media, teen violence is on the decline according to the Justice Department record. In fact, there is less teen violence today than there has been at any time since the mid-1980s.

Per capita, all increases and decreases in teen violence were in crimes that involved firearms. Crimes without firearms has been relatively stable for the past 20 years.

WRT to cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, prostitution, ticket scalping, etc...  I think laws against ALL consensual crimes should be stricken from the books. Simple math... no victim? no crime.

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cheers,
sand
screamin blue messiahs
The SBM's are hiring!

[PC]

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

OK, Who do you think the Militia is supposed to keep the state free from????

If the Federals job is the provide for the common defense, just who do you think they (the writers) were worried about?

And please don’t try to say that the NG is militia, they work for the CIC. I am not saying anything bad about them it’s just that they have been federalized.

PC

[Jekyll]

 

Originally posted by TheWobble:
Uh ho, looks like the anti-gun morons had they prayers for another school shooting almost answered again,

Quite possibly the most stupid, inflammatory and offensive remark I've ever read on a BBS.

So Wobble, you actually believe that those who oppose unrestricted gun ownership are HAPPY that there has been another incident?

You must have an extremely small noodle.

[-ammo-]

 

Originally posted by PC:



And please don’t try to say that the NG is militia, they work for the CIC.

PC

wrong, the national guard works for the state it is assigned under. However Control off units can be had by the SecDef through channels. Happens today in Northern Watch, Southern Watch, etc..

[Sturm]

Jeykl I am curious how would you know?

You must have an extremely small noodle.  your quote to Wobble.  

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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron

[Yeager]

Some old fed document somewhere described the militia as any able bodied male between the ages of 16 and 65 (although I think the sup court back in the 1890s set a different standard that dragged the armed gaurd and naval reserve into the picture...dont quote me Im not sure at the moment).

For me I think having an armed populace keeps the government in line, keeps them wary of treading on people without justification.

I hate it when people use guns against other people without just cause, like self defense, because it makes the rest of us gun owners look like accomplices which we are not.

JMO

Y

[Tac]

"For me I think having an armed populace keeps the government in line, keeps them wary of treading on people without justification"

If the government wants to tread on you without justification, it will. It wont knock on your door with guns (though the Gonzales family may disagree with me), nor will it make it public that they are after you for no reason.

If they wanted to tread on you, you may find a fully documented, evidence-backed problem with the IRS claiming that you have not paid taxes in 20 years, screw your credit over, etc etc. There are many ways for a government to tread on you. How do you think the FBI handled the gangsters? Wasn't Capone framed by the govt in the same way (to pressure him to make mistakes)?

Also, an armed populace a threat? Hardly.

[Toad]

A rehash of an old thread or two.

I won't bother to restate what I've already posted in those threads.

Why does this school stuff keep happening?

Because there's no real accountability for the perpetrators. The Media Circus gives them their 15 minutes of fame which could look pretty glamorous to "copycats".

The Media never shows these deviates 15 years later after they've been someone's "wife" in prison for most of that time. Probably wouldn't look so glamorous then.

All the metal detectors and new laws aren't going to stop this. Take away the guns, they will crash into crowds with cars, as has already been demonstrated.

It will stop when the punishment is perceived as too onerous to contemplate. In a nation where there is no longer any personal accountability or responsibility (Ex: I did NOT have sex with that woman!) that will never happen.

Learn to live with it. It's the USA we all allowed to happen when we abandoned the basic principles of right and wrong, crime and punishment.


[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 03-23-2001).]

[Pup]

TAC don't get me started on the Gonzalas family, that was well with-in the Governments rights, and that picture clearly shows the gun was not pointed at the kid but not going to get into that  ...Anyhow, the reason teen violence is happening? Look at todays society...I am in highschool, 17, and I for one know that role-models these days suck, I am subjected to a world of irresponsible people who do not have the guts to take responsibility for their actions and themselves.  First off, Bill Clinton  , he had an affair lied about it and then lied about it UNDER OATH, perjurized and was not sent to jail and never did get in trouble for it.  Never once taking responsibility for his actions (don't tell me his apology was it, that was total BS, I watched it too) average people blame it on someone else, its societies morals and actions as a whole that has affected the generations.  Its not music, movies, or video games, its societies role-models, morals, and actions as a whole that have desicrated our youth in general..

<S>

Pup out

[leonid]

Yeager & Sturm,
Though I don't believe in 'God' in the classical judeo-christian sense, I do agree we have a common ground about the loss of morals and principles in the USA.  I thinking Dowding hit it on the head when he said, "It's individualism triumphant over society."  Somehow, we need to get back to a point where our main concern is not only how others affect 'me', but just as important, how 'I' affect others.  And while I do not practice a christian religion, anyone who sincerely practices the spirit of these religions cannot be lacking in compassion.  Like Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."