is this correct? (my 190A-5 deck speed test)

[1K3]

Test 1

Test settings: fuel burn = 1, 100% fuel, 4 wing gun option

max speed - 339 TAS (mph)


Test 2

Test settings: fuel burn = 1, 50% fuel, 2 wing gun option

max speed - 343 TAS (mph)

[Krusty]

You didn't give it enough time to get to top speed. Either the 100% fuel wasn't given enough time to accelerate to top speed, or the 50% fuel wasn't given enough time to decelerate to top speed (depending on if you dove to that speed or accelerated level).

Top speed is the same for 4 guns and 2 guns. I believe Skuzzy or somebody has mentioned there's only a 1mph difference.

[Karnak]

The thing is that the extra guns do add extra weight and they are the craptacular MG/FF 20mm cannons like the ones on the Bf109E-4, and they only have 60 rounds each.  So you are adding weight for guns that have completely different ballistics from the MG151/20s and less than a quarter the ammo for each.

The extra cannons are not nearly worth it.

[RTSigma]

I've started flying the A-5 more often, I've noticed this:

The 2 gun option is best for dogfights. With about 50% fuel and at 6-10k I can hit nearly 400 at level autopilot.


The 4 gun with the MG-FF is best reserved for Buff Hunts when you plan to engage at about 200-300 or if you want the extra bit of cannons for some soft GV hunting.


The A2A rockets are a joke unless you practice a lot. They add drag though.

[RRAM]

Originally posted by Karnak
The extra cannons are not nearly worth it.

can't agree with this statement. they may have only 60 rounds and be MG-FFM "craptacular" guns, but they still are 20mm guns, add quite a punch and,being on the external wing sections, increase your firing (and so-hit) area, thus increasing your chances to hit in a snapshot.


The Fw190, even the "light" A5, is a BnZ tool. Sure enough, it can enter and survive one on one fights if it keeps the speed high (if the pilot is good enough, even an A8 can do it successfully) , but no matter what, the 190's best killing tool in AH is the snapshot (very hard to achieve a suprise attack). In a Snapshot you want as much firepower you can bring to bear on the enemy plane at any given time to destroy it at once.

The performance hit for taking the MGFFs is negligible,and the maneouvering loss you suffer is quite minor compared with the firepower you win. And in a 190 you really don't want to maneouver that much as it is a BnZ plane, not a turnfighter (no matter it excells in hispeed dogfights, this still helds true)

The MGFFs,so, are a "must" in the Fw190A5.

[Krusty]

Agreed. Must-have. While they last they are great. And yes, they add weight, but not drag (they are internal). And weight is good if you're diving, and if you're zooming, both of which the 190 loves to do.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Krusty
Agreed. Must-have. While they last they are great. And yes, they add weight, but not drag (they are internal). And weight is good if you're diving, and if you're zooming, both of which the 190 loves to do.

I find the argument for taking the FF cannons very weak. If weight is so good, why not fly a P-47N with full internal fuel?

Weight is never "good". Weight reduces climb and acceleration. Weight in the outter wings increases inertial resistance to rolling.
Weight increases stall speed. Adding weight for virtually useless guns (6.5 seconds of ammo and poor ballistics) is a mistake. You can argue that the added weight makes little difference, but from dueling in 190A-5s, one with and the other without the FFs, there is a measurable difference and it cost the other guy big time.

Hey, fly whatever you like, but you ARE reducing your performance by adding weight.

oh, by the way; deck speeds for 100% gas and FFs is 339 mph. Taking 50% and leaving the FFs in the hanger will produce 340 mph. However, you do gain 600 fpm in climb rate, and that is significant.


My regards,

Widewing

[Wotan]

MGFF are completely pointless in AH. They are only really effective inside 240 yards and their ballistics are so poor that you would miss close to 97% of your shots any way. They add no measurable lethality above and beyond just the 2 x MG151/2cm.

It doesn't matter if they are 20mm or not.

With only 60 rounds per gun the weight of the gun itself remains even after the short duration of MGFF rounds.

The MGFF/M weighed 26kg (57lbs)  per gun

2 x 57 = 114 lbs

add in the weight of the ammo, the ammo cans, mounting brackets etc... you could reasonably end up with an extra 250kg (550lbs) distributed in the outer wings.

This weight won't effect top speed but it will effect roll (especially at higher speeds) and most importantly climb. This is particularly true above FTH were allot of scenario flying is done.

In AH the only MGFF option for the A-5 is for 60 round drum per gun. Later a 90 round drum was made to fit into the same space as the 60.

So for all that weight penalty you get very little in return in terms of added lethality. Hit probability does not improve either.

In scenarios in which I was a CO or SL or Designer we would pass on to our players the results of our testing.

As an example in the first Big Week event AH had I only carried 2 x MG151/2cm, dumped the 13 mm and was able to finish the event with 8 B-17 kills, 1 P-38 and 1 - P-47 over 4 frames.

The guys in my flight were also able to engage and kill a few P-51bs and P-38Ls  that didn't expect too much from the A-8 at those altitudes.

I never lacked lethality and I was able to fly and fight in access of 25k feet. If you have ever flown the FW above 25k (especially the A-8) you know how heavy and sluggish it is. Any weight savings will helps at those altitudes.

[Krusty]

But wotan, you neglect the following:

- 190s have one of the fastest roll rates in the game. If they lose a little, they STILL have one of the fastest roll rates in the game. Even up to 200-250mph I've not noticed any degredation.

- 190s have one of the fastest acceleration rates in the game. even with heavier internal weight, you can still just nose down and pick up 50mph instantly. Or hit WEP and not have to wait at all.

- 190s are not used as turn fighters very much. Even when they mix it up in close quarters, they are usually E fighting, looping and whatnot, using the vertical or their speed for attacking and defending. Affecting the stall weight of a 190 isn't really going to change its operational envelope much, because of the way most fly the plane.

- LW guns in this game are pretty weak. To quote Nelson on a Simpsons Huck Finn episode, "Man those guns are weak. Pow'rful weak!" 2 cannon are good. Yes. 4 cannon are better. MUCH better. Snapshots where all 4 cannon hit are evident as the plane explodes or a whole wing falls off instantly. Hitting with just the 2 inboard guns can often lead to an oil leak, a missing flap, aileron, or some minor part, but taking 4 guns really makes a difference when you start seeing planes fall from the sky instantly.


So:

Added weight issues: Not a problem. 190 already accelerates great. It's not a speed demon anyways.

Reduced roll rate issues: Not an issue. The 190 still rolls better than almost any other plane in the game.

Weight increasing stall speed/other issues: Not really a problem because of the way the 190 is flown (and is most effective) in online situations. Rarely will it be flown at the stall's edge, and usually by the time you do fly at the stall's edge you've burned off a chunk of your gas, and thus reduced your weight.

Weak guns issues: 2 more guns. While they last they REALLY make snapshots hurt, and hurt bad. You can get at least a few kills before you run out of outboard ammo, and when you do you're that much lighter for it. Sure I'd love to have outboard MG151/20s but we don't have that. In their place, the MG/FF do make a stronger, more solid punch.

So I say there are pros and cons. The issues with adding the outboard guns are negligable and the benefit in the short term is worth it. The drawbacks in the long term (after you use outboard ammo) are minor, in my opinion.

Again, it's all subjective, but this is my (and some others') thinking on the matter.

[Krusty]

In regards to scenarios and whatnot, I agree. Flying at 20+k sucks in the 190A. Wallows like a pig. For THAT you definitely want to save weight. Lower down, the weight isn't as imperative.


As a side note, my philosophy is to never dump the MGs. Especially not from the A8 (13mm cowling guns). Those guns are very effective, and you have all that ammo. I don't head home the instant my 20mm is gone, because those MGs still can get you kills (in the right situations).

I guess you did that because of the 25k alt you were flying at, but out of curiousity, can you tell me if you noticed much of a difference in the flight characteristics?

[Karnak]

Krusty,

Due to the radically different balistics you will not hit with all four 20mm guns.  The MG151/20 and Hispano Mk II have much closer ballistic properties to eachother than do the MG/FF and MG151/20.

As to roll rate, the F4U is as good, and at higher speeds the P-51 and P-38L surpass the Fw190s.  Add to that the the greater the margin of your roll superiority the more useful it is.

[Wotan]

But wotan, you neglect the following:

- 190s have one of the fastest roll rates in the game. If they lose a little, they STILL have one of the fastest roll rates in the game. Even up to 200-250mph I've not noticed any degredation.

- 190s have one of the fastest acceleration rates in the game. even with heavier internal weight, you can still just nose down and pick up 50mph instantly. Or hit WEP and not have to wait at all.

- 190s are not used as turn fighters very much. Even when they mix it up in close quarters, they are usually E fighting, looping and whatnot, using the vertical or their speed for attacking and defending. Affecting the stall weight of a 190 isn't really going to change its operational envelope much, because of the way most fly the plane.

- LW guns in this game are pretty weak. To quote Nelson on a Simpsons Huck Finn episode, "Man those guns are weak. Pow'rful weak!" 2 cannon are good. Yes. 4 cannon are better. MUCH better. Snapshots where all 4 cannon hit are evident as the plane explodes or a whole wing falls off instantly. Hitting with just the 2 inboard guns can often lead to an oil leak, a missing flap, aileron, or some minor part, but taking 4 guns really makes a difference when you start seeing planes fall from the sky instantly.

The 190's roll rate is at its greatest advantage at low end to mid of the speed curve, the faster you go the less of roll advantage you have.. In fact many planes surpass it.

What makes a good aircraft is acceleration and climb... Both are affected by weight. If you don't think 200-250 kg affect planes performance then fly around with 250kg strapped on...

Mister Fork has a spread sheet he did of  Aircraft Acceleration test. Those tests were done at 25%. Even at that light weight the 190s were down in the (like 18 or 19). Its most likely even lower down on that list now as new planes like the P-38s, Ki-84 and P-47N (among others) have been added. Many planes out accelerate it and out climb. Many are so close that any added advantage you can gain to shed weight will make all the difference. If you don't understand what the advantages are to acceleration and climb then maybe Widewing will explain it to you.

Roll rate is over rated in these games except when the fight is slow and in close. There are no adverse effects on the pilots slapping their sticks and rudders around to stay with a bad guy.

I have more time in the 190s in AH then you probably have in AH all together. In fact I can't find any stats for 'Krusty' in AH, what's you in game nic? I don't need a 'lesson'.

Anyone can get 'kills' in any plane if they fly like a wuss. Those players who can get everything they can out of an aircraft in the close in fights are the ones who are the true experts...

Maybe thats you problem, you fly it around like a stuffed pig and concluded 'there is only one way to fly a 190... bore -n- zzzz.

[MANDO]

Originally posted by Krusty
- 190s have one of the fastest acceleration rates in the game. even with heavier internal weight, you can still just nose down and pick up 50mph instantly. Or hit WEP and not have to wait at all.

[Wilbus]

LOL What Mando said

Karnak, agree with balistics and hit EXCEPT for the snapshots. If you fire straight forward when they pass infront of you they should fly into the bullet stream.

However if any kind of lead shot or similair is taken the balistics will be very different.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Krusty

As a side note, my philosophy is to never dump the MGs. Especially not from the A8 (13mm cowling guns). Those guns are very effective, and you have all that ammo. I don't head home the instant my 20mm is gone, because those MGs still can get you kills (in the right situations).

Well, the 13mm guns have some use, just not much.

Here's some alternate methods of ammo loading for the 190s.

190A-5: You have 22.7 seconds of MG151 ammo, 6.5 seconds of MGFF ammo and a whopping 57.3 seconds of 7.92 mm ammo.
So, I never take the MGFFs and I shoot out about 25 seconds of 7.92 mm ammo. This means that the cannons and machine guns are empty at the same time. Additional 7.92 mm ammo is virtually useless anyway.

190A-8: I prefer the four MG151s for most sorties. You have 22.7 seconds of MG151 ammo and 33.7 seconds of 13 mm ammo. I may shoot out 11 seconds of 13 mm ammo so that all guns run out at the same time. 30 mm cannons provide for just 12.5 seconds of firing.

190D-9: Same as A-8 in terms of shooting time. You can burn off some 13 mm if you wish.

190F-8: Taking only two MG151s and burning down the 13 mm ammo will improve performance and handling. Whether it's worth the loss of firepower is up to the user. Shooting time is same as 190D-9 or A-8.

A bomb rack on the 190D-9 will cost you 8 mph on the deck (375 down to 367). On the A-8 or A-5 it will cost you 6 or 7 mph. If you plan to fly a Jabo sortie, I suggest flying the F-8 with max bombs and minimum guns/ammo.

My regards,

Widewing