Author Topic: P-51D vs Fw-190D  (Read 3803 times)

Offline J_A_B

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P-51D vs Fw-190D
« Reply #60 on: August 07, 2005, 09:25:02 AM »
"But regardless of that fact, most would stick to a safer range of maneuvering, on a team level effort. Stick to the promised moves, use others to clear six, and try not to commit everything in a single fight - since they can't simply reup after they die, like we do. "

There were unquestionably conservative pilots, just as there were more aggressive ones.  We see the same thing in AH--we see the P-51 and 190 guys who timidly stay high and fast and basically only cherry-pick, then we see a few who really get into the fights and use everything they have.  A heck of a lot of AH P-51 fliers probably never use their flaps, if they still fly like they were when I played the game.


"I was merely trying to make a point that complex issues involved in flying a plane, might be able to explain the reason why some pilots considered the Fw190s as an able "dogfighter", quite contrary to us gamer's impression on that plane."

The 190A DOES seem pretty straightforeward to fly, doesn't it?  Between it's fairly simple operation and relative comfort (low stick forces, good vision), I can see why pilots would like it.  Something like the P-38 is basically on the opposite end of the spectrum and is complex to operate by comparison.   It could be claimed that it was "easier" to get the most out of a 190 than a P-38, and that kind of claim would probably be right for most pilots.


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Offline Urchin

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P-51D vs Fw-190D
« Reply #61 on: August 07, 2005, 09:37:22 AM »
I actually think the 190A5 is a pretty fair dogfighter...  well, the best of a bad bunch anyway.  

You aren't going to kill anyone competent flying a good fighter, but you can surprise people, then leave if you don't get the quick kill you need.  

The D-9 and A-8 on the other hand are pretty hopeless.

Offline bj229r

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P-51D vs Fw-190D
« Reply #62 on: August 07, 2005, 11:39:53 AM »
I'm an expert at dying in the D9, A8 and F8 --and the QUICKEst way to accomplish that feat is to get in a slow turn fight with anything other than a heavy Lancaster (if he's light, its iffy):rolleyes:
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Offline Charge

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P-51D vs Fw-190D
« Reply #63 on: August 07, 2005, 04:53:16 PM »
I'd like to point out that, AFAIK, the flaps may even reduce the amount of AoA you can pull. So they do add lift but they may also restrict you maneuverability. AFAIK only leading edge slats (or similar flow equalizers) can increase the AoA you can pull.

I'd choose the slats over flaps. They function faster and enable you to create similar lift as with flaps but faster and without fear of losing control if you pull too much.

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Offline agent 009

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P-51D vs Fw-190D
« Reply #64 on: August 07, 2005, 05:20:09 PM »
190 late A series hopeless? Hmmm , well 4-5 channel coast aces got over 50 Spits each. sounds pretty hopeless.

Offline Ack-Ack

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P-51D vs Fw-190D
« Reply #65 on: August 07, 2005, 05:32:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
I actually think the 190A5 is a pretty fair dogfighter...  well, the best of a bad bunch anyway.  

 


When the FW190A came out, it was totally superior to the Spitfire V, which was at the time the main RAF fighter.  At the time it was considered a supurb dogfighter, even more than the bf109s.



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Offline Ack-Ack

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P-51D vs Fw-190D
« Reply #66 on: August 07, 2005, 05:36:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charge


I'd choose the slats over flaps. They function faster and enable you to create similar lift as with flaps but faster and without fear of losing control if you pull too much.

-C+



I think the Germans that flew the planes with the auto-slats might disagree.  One of the biggest complaints about the bf109 and other planes that had the auto-slats was that they had a tendency to deploy asymetrically while maneuvering.  It was a problem that the Germans were never fully able to fix.  


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Offline Urchin

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P-51D vs Fw-190D
« Reply #67 on: August 07, 2005, 06:32:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
When the FW190A came out, it was totally superior to the Spitfire V, which was at the time the main RAF fighter.  At the time it was considered a supurb dogfighter, even more than the bf109s.



ack-ack


Yea, but the Spit V we have isn't a Spit V from when the 190A came into service.  If I had to guess, I'd say the early 190s could pull more power than the early Spit Vs, and get away via climbing and diving.  The 190A's we have can dive away from a Spit V, but climbing away, if the Spit has anywhere near the same amount of speed, would be just about the quickest way I know to die.

Offline 1K3

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P-51D vs Fw-190D
« Reply #68 on: August 07, 2005, 10:51:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MANDO
As many of us remember, Pyro expressed his intention to redo all the 190 family (may be a year ago). So, we may consider AH 190s as unfinished planes at this moment.


I remember Pyro wants to make some tweaks on 190A-5 (using company test figures) BUT there were pros and tradeoffs

PROS:

* higher speed at deck.

Trade-offs:

* much lower climb rate.
* maximum speed at alt much lower.

Pyro knew there's alot more to lose then to gain.

Offline Squire

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P-51D vs Fw-190D
« Reply #69 on: August 07, 2005, 11:12:11 PM »
The FW 190A-5 we have came into service in 1943.
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Offline Crumpp

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P-51D vs Fw-190D
« Reply #70 on: August 07, 2005, 11:15:58 PM »
Quote
Yea, but the Spit V we have isn't a Spit V from when the 190A came into service.


No it is not the correct Spit V.

However, when the Spitfire Mk IX appeared it was a large morale boost to the RAF and was considered the "answer" to the FW-190A.

It's appearence was hardly noticed in the FW-190 Geschwaders.  A Spitfire remained a Spitfire until the appearence of the Spitfire Mk IVX.

On the FW-190A5, according to the pilots who flew the FW-190A5 it was worst performing of the Antons.  The design gained weight with no power gain.  This is backed up by the technical history of the design.  Some late production FW-190A5's benefited from some engine and prop changes.

I disagree on the performance changes.  Properly modeled the FW190 will get it's high best climb speed and shallower angle climb.  The performance specs our FW190A5 is modeled off is EB-104.  An FW-190G the USAAF tried to ballast back to an FW-190A5.  The G series has a higher drag profile than the FW-190A so it climbs at a steeper angle and much slower speed.  It lacked the engine setup of the Antons and it's performance is not representative of the type.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: August 07, 2005, 11:21:07 PM by Crumpp »

Offline 1K3

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P-51D vs Fw-190D
« Reply #71 on: August 07, 2005, 11:34:32 PM »
thx for clarifying,

i thought AH spit 9 is the only "Frankenstein", i guess the A-5 goes with the likes of spit 9:(

Offline 1K3

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P-51D vs Fw-190D
« Reply #72 on: August 08, 2005, 12:03:27 AM »
crummp i sent PM, you might wanna check...

Offline Squire

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P-51D vs Fw-190D
« Reply #73 on: August 08, 2005, 12:34:05 AM »
And the RAF made no distinction between any of the 190A series. It was just "Fw190" or "Long nose 190" for the D-9.
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Offline LRRP22

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P-51D vs Fw-190D
« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2005, 01:48:53 PM »
Crumpp,

I could post multiple quotes from Mustang pilots who have said the same regarding the P-51's ability to outperform the 190/109.

One Fw 190 shooting down one P-51 in a dogfight, and then being shot down itself by that same Mustang, doesn't really tell us much.

On a related note, the use of combat flaps by P-51 pilots was very common.


Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

To quote Oscar Boesch, "I feared no fighter I could see in my Focke!".

He flew an FW190A8 for the majority of his FW190 career.  He is credited with P51, Spitfire, La, and Yak kills.  

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: August 08, 2005, 01:57:49 PM by LRRP22 »