Author Topic: WTfG New Jersey - Life - Not Death (Read 2349 times)

Speed55 · « **Reply #90 on:** December 19, 2007, 09:50:50 AM »

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Originally posted by cpxxx
The reality is that killing someone as punishment really makes you no better than they are. Worse still, as often as not, execution is carried out in the most cold blooded and gruesome way.

It clearly isn't a deterrance. If it was there would be few murders in States where the killing of prisoners is allowed.

Many people are half savage barbarians to this day even in so called civilised countries. That trait should not be encouraged. Execution is simply revenge not punishment.

Certain murderers should never be released and held in conditions that remind them daily of the horror of their crime. 40 years of hell on earth is much better punishment than death.

I think this topic was brought up a year or two ago. The way i see it, is that as soon as one of these animals kills, they lose all ties to the human race. The execution method nowadays is lethal injection. They lie on a nice comfy table, fall asleep, and then die.

I know a few people here in NY, where the only reason they're against the death penalty is because it's more like life with a million appeals.
People on death row, cost taxpayers alot more to house daily then regular inmates.
If a murderer has been proven without a shadow of doubt, caught red handed, or matched up with dna evidence, why is it such a problem for the system to make them face there punishment?

Yeager · « **Reply #91 on:** December 19, 2007, 09:52:25 AM »

It clearly isn't a deterrance.
====
No executed murderer has ever killed another human being. Plenty of murderers have served their time and then been released from prison only to go back out into society and murder again. Dont you get that?

Put the rabbid dogs down.

LEADPIG · « **Reply #92 on:** December 19, 2007, 10:08:20 AM »

See Rule #5

Yeager · « **Reply #93 on:** December 19, 2007, 10:24:06 AM »

You oppose the death penalty for the right reasons MT, however, your opposition to it is still wrong, imo. There are simply some human beings who are so dangerous to the rest of us that as long as they are alive we are all threatened by them. All of us, our children, law enforcement...prison security, the judiciary. All of us, our society. To me such threats must be permanently terminated

john9001 · « **Reply #94 on:** December 19, 2007, 10:28:46 AM »

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Originally posted by Yeager
You oppose the death penalty for the right reasons MT, however, your opposition to it is still wrong, imo. There are simply some human beings who are so dangerous to the rest of us that as long as they are alive we are all threatened by them. All of us, our children, law enforcement...prison security, the judiciary. All of us, our society. To me such threats must be permanently terminated

i have been wanting to say something like that, I just could not find the right words.

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #95 on:** December 19, 2007, 11:12:09 AM »

We execute the condemned behind the closed doors of a prison with a few select witnesses. No video, no unauthorized photographs.

If we weren't ashamed of the death penalty, we would do it openly in public, maybe even televise it..

Hurricane · « **Reply #96 on:** December 19, 2007, 11:41:07 AM »

I think any of you who are split in to either the "all the scum must die!" and the "we must retain our morality!" groups have both missed point.

the real argument against the death penalty isnt morality.

What happens if the cops picked up the wrong guy?
He gets murdered.
The state commits murder, and the real criminal is out there thinking "w00t! I can get away with that again!"

You would support an overzealous state/govt?

what if the wrong guy they caught was you?

Now if it was a prison sentance and they realised theyd got the wrong dude, fair doos, you get some cash, an apology and a lift home. Otherwise....

"Sorry Ma'am, we appear to have accidently electrocuted your husband."

Yeager · « **Reply #97 on:** December 19, 2007, 11:42:01 AM »

If we weren't ashamed of the death penalty, we would do it openly in public, maybe even televise it..
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Interesting opinion. I tend to disagree with it however. I believe the condemned are executed in the current manner for various reasons, but I am certainly not aware of the full history of it.

I believe much of it is out of respect for both the relatives of the deceased victim and those of the soon to be deceased. Im sure there are lawful reasons to be considered. I know the last public execution in france (a head removal ceremony) turned into a fanatical expression of public debauchery sparked by a lunatic crowd of drunkards and general trouble makers. It was a pathetic and regrettable demonstration of a society not quite ready for prime time. Executions in france were outlawed as a result. Too bad, as I am confident that france, like any country of mass populations has a small number of people that do not deserve to be alive.

I like to think our society, even in pursuit of its most serious and regrettable acts of self defense, maintains a serious level of dignity towards all involved. I do not want to see public executions, but I have no problem allowing the public into an execution, like the public can go and be spectators in court, a highly controlled and sacred institution of our democracy. Sometimes this is done through a lottery system. I have no problem with that.

Besides the provision of a dignified death, I believe the condemned should be spared pain and suffering. this act of state sanctioned self defense must not be for vengence, this is simply to act in complete defense of the people from the horrific attacks of cold blooded murderers.

Jackal1 · « **Reply #98 on:** December 19, 2007, 11:53:14 AM »

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Originally posted by Yeager
I know the last public execution in france (a head removal ceremony) turned into a fanatical expression of public debauchery sparked by a lunatic crowd of drunkards and general trouble makers. It was a pathetic and regrettable demonstration of a society not quite ready for prime time. Executions in france were outlawed as a result.

It`s a wonder, judging by that, that pro sports events haven`t also been outlawed.

Yeager · « **Reply #99 on:** December 19, 2007, 11:59:20 AM »

good point! straffo, comments?

indy007 · « **Reply #100 on:** December 19, 2007, 12:22:29 PM »

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Originally posted by Yeager
Interesting opinion. I tend to disagree with it however. I believe the condemned are executed in the current manner for various reasons, but I am certainly not aware of the full history of it.

I believe much of it is out of respect for both the relatives of the deceased victim and those of the soon to be deceased. Im sure there are lawful reasons to be considered.

Court rulings. The gas chamber was ruled "cruel and unusual" by a federal court. I boils down to what people consider humane.

I think my problem with capital punishment is the same as MT's...

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67% of capital convictions are eventually overturned, mainly on procedural grounds of incompetent legal counsel, police or prosecutors who suppressed evidence and judges who gave jurors the wrong instructions. Seven percent of those whose sentences were overturned between 1973 and 1995 have been acquitted. Ten percent were retried and re-sentenced to death. The remainder typically end up with lesser sentences, up to and including life imprisonment.

From Columbia Law School, Error Rates in Capital Cases 1973-1995. here

If the government can get it wrong, then they shouldn't be doing something that can't be undone.

straffo · « **Reply #101 on:** December 19, 2007, 01:41:42 PM »

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Originally posted by Yeager
good point! straffo, comments?

Well you know the story about apple and orange ?

This chart and it's tittle let inattentive people make a correlation between execution and murder per capita.

But even this chart show ,it's not related ,just look at 1993 and compare to 1980

didn't understood your comment

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Originally posted by Yeager

I know the last public execution in france (a head removal ceremony) turned into a fanatical expression of public debauchery sparked by a lunatic crowd of drunkards and general trouble makers. It was a pathetic and regrettable demonstration of a society not quite ready for prime time. Executions in france were outlawed as a result. Too bad, as I am confident that france, like any country of mass populations has a small number of people that do not deserve to be alive.

Public execution where stopped at the end of the 30's (from memory) the last one was the pinnacle of the debauchery as you say,but didn't lead to the end of death sentences.

Death sentence were outlawed in 1981 and now (since this year) our constitution prevent completely the death sentence.

Yeager · « **Reply #102 on:** December 19, 2007, 02:27:02 PM »

Thanks straffo, I understand better what happened now.

I do agree that the american justice system is seriously broken and that justice is becoming increasingly difficult to deliver. Yet I do believe in principle that there are certain humans, just a few out of all of us, that are such terrible monsters that they need to be killed simply to protect everyone else.

lazs2 · « **Reply #103 on:** December 19, 2007, 02:37:53 PM »

some of you guys are getting pretty far afield here.

lets get some things straight.. we absolutely do kill millions of people all the time and that does not make us "as bad as the murderers" just as those societies who don't kill the killers are no more morally superior than those who do.

all societies kill for a variety of reasons.. we all kill men women and children by the thousands in war. we kill unborn babies.. not to get into the morality of that but.. we feel that it is "worth" it. we kill all the time.. we even allow doctors to kill in mercy killings..

Sooo we absolutely think that killing is fine. we don't say that if we allow any killing we are the same as the murderers...

same goes for capital punishment.. if it even deters one murderer.. if it prevents one murderer from committing another murder.. then it is a net plus. It is done for a reason at least as good as a war or an abortion.

lazs

straffo · « **Reply #104 on:** December 19, 2007, 02:42:44 PM »

I'm not sure your justice system is broken out is not in a good shape either.

As I see per the US television program I've access to, your society is more violent than our, why I don't really know , perhaps because guns are more available as in France perhaps for other reasons I can't imagine.

Perhaps the key is in education and a different repartition of the wealth,I don't know for sure, the only thing I know is : it's your problem and you have to solve it the fastest you can for your sibling.