Author Topic: Spit XVI - please reconsider  (Read 3386 times)

Offline Kev367th

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Spit XVI - please reconsider
« on: August 03, 2005, 09:18:32 PM »
General -
Remember - the Spit IX/XVI are the same aircraft, only difference is where the engine was made!

At 18lbs boost its a 1943 LF IX.

I seriously don't believe it would be the monster people seem think it would be, its the Ki-84 panic all over again.
Lets put it in perpective (1K3 used your figures hope you don't mind), at 25lbs boost

50+ mhp slower than 109K-4 at alt
40+ mph slower than P-51B at alt
40+ mph slower than Spitfire Mk. XIV at alt
30+ mph slower than P-51D at alt
20+ mph slower than Fw-190D-9 at alt

On the deck - at least the La7, D9 ,G10 ,Tiffy, Pony all faster.
Only outstanding attribute is its climb rate, but ALL current main MA planes have at least one outstanding attribute.

People just seem to get really nervous over what is a really a 1944 Spit IX, i don't understand it. Interesting if it had been announced a Spit IX with 25lbs was being introduced, is it the XVI tag that is confusing people?
Just to re-iterate - Spit IX/XVI SAME PLANE.

Pyro -
If you have definately decided it would be at 18lbs, in all honesty I would prefer you just fix the Current Mk IX and remodel the remaining as is.

I for one would take an 16lb Spit V over a 18lb Spit LF IX anyday.

I don't think any of us Spitfans mind giving up the uber spit V, but to be replaced by a 1943 Spit IX, no thanks.

Bring it in at 150 grade/25lbs boost with an ENY of 5/6 unperked.

Please keep this thread to 18/25lbs topic.

Thankyou
« Last Edit: August 03, 2005, 09:59:46 PM by Kev367th »
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Offline Guppy35

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Spit XVI - please reconsider
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2005, 09:45:34 PM »
Agreed with Kev.

Seems to defeat the purpose of tweaking the Spit Vb back to 41 standards, getting the Spit IX to 42 standards, adding an LFVIII at 18+boost for 43-44 and then essentially just clipping it for the XVI.

They started using the 150 octane and 25+ boost in May 44 so there was an entire year where  IXs and XVIs were operating at the higher boost before the war ended.  Clearly 2 TAF birds got the fuel too so the ground attack Spits were using it.

Just remember the environment the Spit LFXVIe will be operating in the MA.  It won't be a beast, but will finally give us a Spit that is closer to the late war pack.

Plus the clipped wing, tall tail Spit looks great :)

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Offline Krusty

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Spit XVI - please reconsider
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2005, 10:36:14 PM »
Kev I have to disagree with you here.

"Only outstanding attribute is climb" -- well first, that climb rate would be 1200fpm faster than the fastest climbing planes in the game. Second, the speed would be competitive with the top10 fastest planes in the game. You list there are some major players faster than it, yes, but it is faster than 85% of the rest of the planeset. Another outstanding attribute is that it has one of the tightest turn rates in the game. It would turn better than a spit9 (more powerful engine with nearly the same frame). Another outstanding attribute would be the ability to get kills very easily with 2x20mm hispano cannon, each with 125rpg, and I don't recall it if had 4x303 or 2x50cal, to boot.

That's a lot of outstanding attributes. In fact the only drawback this fighter would have would be the top speed, which is fast enough to catch most of the rides in the game (and those that outrun it would only be able to outrun it, never out climb, never out turn, never out shoot, and never out fly it). That's one pretty tiny chink in an otherwise invulnerable armor.

As such I must disagree.

Offline 1K3

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Spit XVI - please reconsider
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2005, 11:00:25 PM »
hmmmm, spitfires with "clipped wings" (LF) has higher stall speed and doesnt have the trademark sustained turn found on "full wings" (F).

(btw there's a thread "The effects of clipped wing Spitfires" burried somewhere at page 7 or 8)

Offline Guppy35

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Spit XVI - please reconsider
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2005, 11:12:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 1K3
hmmmm, spitfires with "clipped wings" (LF) has higher stall speed and doesnt have the trademark sustained turn found on "full wings" (F).

(btw there's a thread "The effects of clipped wing Spitfires" burried somewhere at page 7 or 8)


LOL just remember who was posting those quotes.

The only place the full span wings showed a marked difference was above 20K

Down low the roll rate, in particular with the 190s was more important.

And remember that an LF Spit doesn't mean it has clipped wings.  It means the engine is rated for lower alts.

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Offline Karnak

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Spit XVI - please reconsider
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2005, 11:23:58 PM »
Still, all XVIs were clipped and the turn radius would be slightly worse than a full span Spit's turn radius.


Krusty,

It would have an "e" wing which means two 20mm Hispano Mk II cannon with 120 rounds per gun and two .50 caliber Brownings with 250 rounds per gun.  It would also have three hard points.


That said, it would be an awful nasty package.

I would like to see it come in as a free plane and then be perked if it had to be, as in the case of the F4U-1C.
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Offline Pongo

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Spit XVI - please reconsider
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2005, 11:35:11 PM »
bubble canopy.

Offline Kev367th

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Spit XVI - please reconsider
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2005, 12:40:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Kev I have to disagree with you here.

"Only outstanding attribute is climb" -- well first, that climb rate would be 1200fpm faster than the fastest climbing planes in the game. Second, the speed would be competitive with the top10 fastest planes in the game. You list there are some major players faster than it, yes, but it is faster than 85% of the rest of the planeset. Another outstanding attribute is that it has one of the tightest turn rates in the game. It would turn better than a spit9 (more powerful engine with nearly the same frame). Another outstanding attribute would be the ability to get kills very easily with 2x20mm hispano cannon, each with 125rpg, and I don't recall it if had 4x303 or 2x50cal, to boot.

That's a lot of outstanding attributes. In fact the only drawback this fighter would have would be the top speed, which is fast enough to catch most of the rides in the game (and those that outrun it would only be able to outrun it, never out climb, never out turn, never out shoot, and never out fly it). That's one pretty tiny chink in an otherwise invulnerable armor.

As such I must disagree.


You obviously missed what I put twice A SPIT XVI IS A SPIT 9, only with an American built Merlin 66 (known as a 266).
Will not turn better than a standard 9, in fact it should be slightly worse due to having clipped wings (Plenty discussion on that topic on the BB). But will roll better.
I'll say it again, A LF SPIT XVI IS THE SAME AS A LF SPIT IX - got it?

If you played in the MA you would realize that speed is everything, yes it could catch the top 4 or 5 given the right circumstances, but that holds true if you chasing them in a Zeke.

So it appears your main objection is if it does catch them it stands a good chance of killing them, well whoop dee doo, isn't that what the MA is all about? You should have seen the number of Spit 14's ive seen shot down the last few days, and they are far superior to the IX/XVI.

Plenty of planes turn tighter, plenty are faster, some carry the same guns a few have better guns, doesn't make it an uber Spit, especially in the MA environment.

If the main objection is that it stands a good chance of killing the speed demons - BRING IT ON.

Lets do a little scenario -
Incoming bogies, guy scrambles a Spit 16, hits WEP, a little over 4 mins later he is at 20k. He now has less than 1 min WEP remaining. If he continues climb and reaches 25k WEP runs out. - and the problem is?

Lets continue it, he only goes to 20k so has around a min WEP left, he chases a 190 (that hasn't used WEP) down in a dive, they both level, both hit WEP and the 190 strolls away, having not only default longer WEP left (10 mins?) but more than likely more speed - and the problem is?

Reverse the situation the D9 will catch the Spit eventually.

And no this is not a fantasy situation it is 70%+ of current MA tactics.

Its no real threat 20k+ where the inobunds usually hang out, its purely a low alt fighter.

Another overlooked chink - at 25lbs boost, fuel consumption is increased by approx 24%, so they aren't going roaming halfway across a map.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 01:32:12 AM by Kev367th »
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Offline Angus

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Spit XVI - please reconsider
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2005, 06:54:35 AM »
With some 5 mins on WEP to 20K, it vastly outclimbs our XIV, so this aircraft is nowhere near the IX we have.
Well, our IX is a hybe anyway.
Do you have the performance specs or a link for them somewhere?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Karnak

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Spit XVI - please reconsider
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2005, 10:08:33 AM »
Kev,

There is an awful lot more to air-to-air combat than simple top speed and the LF.XVI at +25lbs boost brings a lot to the table.

I think Krusty's concerns are honest and legitimate.

Look at it this way, you posted the top speed differences.  Let's look at the sea level speeds where AH is mostly fought:

Tempest (perked): +28mph
La-7: +26mph
F4U-4 (perked): +24mph
Fw190D-9: +23mph
Typhoon: +20mph
Bf109G-10: +15mph
P-51D: +13mph
P-47N: +11mph
Ta152H-1 (perked): +9mph
Spitfire Mk XIV (perked): +4mph
F4U-1C (perked): +2mph


Coupled with the acceleration that the 5,700fpm sea level climb rate indicates those are not comfortable margins and in most cases not even useful ones.  The Spit XVI at +25lbs would build E like mad down low.

I would not have a problem with two perked Spits, the Mk XIV at +21lbs perked higher and the Mk XVI at +25lbs perked as an introductory perk along the lines of the current Ta152H-1 and F4U-1C.  I would rather have it with it's historical performance correctly modeled and perked than free, but underperforming.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 10:14:03 AM by Karnak »
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Offline Krusty

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Spit XVI - please reconsider
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2005, 01:40:56 PM »
Consider the fact that even with +18 it's faster and performs better than the spit9. The clipped wings increase roll rate (and thus the ability to change lift direction with a snap roll), and the clipped wings reduce wing drag, increasing the top speed.

I think the subtle advantages a spit16 (with clipped wing) has over a spit9 (without clipped wing) warrant the use of +18 on a later plane. It would STILL perform better in most areas than the spit9. I see no reason to make a plane that's vastly superior to the spit14 in all but top speed. And Pyro's said he likes the spit14 the way it is (he said it in one of these spit/109 threads), so there's no reason we would lose the spit14. So why have a +25 spit16? Makes no sense. And that climb rate would be suicide to fight against. We thought the spit14 and the f4u4 and the tempest could zoom NOW, imagine this thing, it would leave the me163 in the dust! LOL

Offline 1K3

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Spit XVI - please reconsider
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2005, 01:50:46 PM »
Krusty, Kev

You 2 are over reacting

take a deeep breath, relax

:)

Offline Karnak

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Spit XVI - please reconsider
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2005, 01:51:52 PM »
Well, we disagree to an extent Krusty.  Teh Me163 has a climb of about 16,000ft/min.


The concern from Spit fans perspective is that the +25lbs boost is the correct historical performance.  +18lbs was rare, or nonexistant in Mk XVIs.

I'd be perfectly comfortable with a lightly perked Mk XVI at +25lbs boost and a higher perked Mk XIV at +21lbs boost.

After flying the Mk XIV a couple of times on Tuesday I don't like it's current model at all.  It is incredibly difficult to fly compared with any other fighter I can think of.  It needs to be watched and fought constantly.

That said, I'll take whatever Pyro gives us quite happily.  That list of seven made me very happy.

Spitfire Mk Ia
Spitfire Mk Vb
Spitfire F.Mk IX
Spitfire LF.Mk VIIIc
Seafire L.Mk III
Spitfire LF.Mk XVIe
Spitfire F.Mk XIV

That list is so great looking that I have to post it again. :p Whatever the boosts, that will be very nice in AH.
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Offline Krusty

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Spit XVI - please reconsider
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2005, 02:00:22 PM »
Ik3, I think I'm fairly calm.

Karnak, the 163 bit was a joke (the LOL indicated that). :P

Well, Karnak, what about hypothetically unperking the spit14 and skipping a spit16? The 14 would fill the role of a late war spit, and the perk price was just recently reduced (HTC is open to suggestions on the matter).

Offline Squire

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Spit XVI - please reconsider
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2005, 02:30:23 PM »
In regard to the Spit 16, this doc seems to suggest that there was a time that the Spit 16 ran on 100 octane in RAF 2nd TAF.

Its dated November 1944 (a month after the XVIE came into service, 5 months after the LF IXE came into service).

It would seem to suggest that up untill that time, only ADGB (UK based) Tempests, XIVs (in ADGB, not 2nd TAF), IXs (some) and probably P-51s (some) with the USAAF ran on 150 octane to chase V-1s.

Here it is:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/2taf150_112044.gif

I think one could conclude that many XVIs did eventually get the clearance, but certainly running on 100 octane was something they did in late 44, and I think its safe to say that a 100 oct XVI did exist. They certainly didnt run on 150 prior to getting clearance to do it.

For info.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 02:36:39 PM by Squire »
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