Author Topic: Spit XVI - please reconsider (Read 3384 times)

Squire · « **Reply #30 on:** August 04, 2005, 04:00:28 PM »

There was a Merlin 70 Spit H.F. IXc and also the Spit F.VII but after Normandy these were used in regular mid-low alt fighter and fighter-bomber ops, and medium bomber escort.

The RAFs strategic bombers flew at night, and so there was no operational need for very many high alt tactical fighters as the war went on, unlike 8th AF that had a policy of daylight attacks escorted at high alt by fighters.

The LW also did not have that many high alt recon a/c or bombers operating in the west during daylight 43-45, so again, the need in the RAF for a high alt performer was just not that great, save a few for the odd 109 or 190 recon bird that came in above 30,000 ft.

Kev367th · « **Reply #31 on:** August 04, 2005, 04:07:35 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
Karnak: Ahh, I forgot the spit8 was an LF, I thought it was just an F, that makes a bit more sense.

Kev, I know the difference, yes. That's why I'm saying that the spit16 with +18 boost and clipped wings won't at all be like the spit9 with +18 boost and unclipped wings. The flight envelope would be very different, thus allowing better performance from the later plane -- the spit16. Better peformance would be found in all alts below 20k, which, frankly, in AH nobody flies anywhere near that high unless they're in scenarios or the CT, in which case there are still spit F.9's to do the work at higher alts, and spit F.16s if more speed is needed.

To boil down what I'm saying, "You say there's no reason to put in a +18 spit16. We've supplied some reasons. So it could/would/should be put in with +18".

Back to Karnak: Pyro said he wasn't sure people would fly the spit8... Maybe this is because he's planning on the +18 spit16, as was mentioned... The spit16 at +18 would probably perform better than the spit8, and maybe he was thinking they were too close to each other?

Sorry Krusty thought you didn't realize the LF H HF stuff, I should have known better.

Thats why I said 18lbs Spit XVI, bye bye Spit VIII. No reason for it anymore.
The whole idea was that the LF MK VIII could stand-in for the LF IX. With the XVI at 18lbs the VIII is redundant.

The 18lbs LF XVI and 18lbs LF VIII should perform 'almost' identically, same motor. Not counting the slightly bigger turn radius and better roll of a clipped Spit.

So kiss goodbye to our representative Spit lineup. Does shafted again spring to mind lol.

But Krusty the average MA furball is 20k down, alts perfect for a LF XVI, even with 25lbs boost its still easy meat in a furball. Boost only lasts 5 mins after which its just a Merlin 266 Spit XVI.
I think people believe Mk XVI's will be cruising around the MA for hours on end at 25lbs.

Squire · « **Reply #32 on:** August 04, 2005, 04:14:15 PM »

Still has the E wing with the .50s as well as 3 hardpoints.

Its also good to have an VIIIc with a standard wing if the XVI is clipped.

There are 3 1943-45 P-47s, I dont see it as a big deal to have 3 1943-45 Spits.

VIIIc (or LF IXc).
XVIe
XIVe

Karnak · « **Reply #33 on:** August 04, 2005, 04:14:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
Back to Karnak: Pyro said he wasn't sure people would fly the spit8... Maybe this is because he's planning on the +18 spit16, as was mentioned... The spit16 at +18 would probably perform better than the spit8, and maybe he was thinking they were too close to each other?

I see that too, but from a scenario perspective, especially if he wants to hold the possibility of going to +25lbs boost on the XVI open, we need coverage of mid-43-mid-44. In addition the VIII would be great for Pac and Med scenarios.

I would personally take the VIII over the XVI regardless of boost levels.

Kev367th · « **Reply #34 on:** August 04, 2005, 04:16:37 PM »

Yeah the VIII had a greater range for starters.
I think the LWeebles have effectively killed off any chance of 25lbs boost (present company excepted Krusty).

Look on the bright side we get another good replacement the Seafire L III, 358mph at 8000 feet is not to be sneezed at, it will probably give an VIII a run for its money down low.

Qucik guess

Mk I - 1940
MK Vb - 1941
Mk F IX - 1942
MK LF XVI - mmm you know my feeling on this
MK F XIV - 1944 (perked)

Seafire III - 1943

Kinda hosed up the reprsentative idea hasn't it?

Guppy35 · « **Reply #35 on:** August 04, 2005, 04:18:26 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kev367th
Sorry Krusty thought you didn't realize the LF H HF stuff, I should have known better.

Thats why I said 18lbs Spit XVI, bye bye Spit VIII. No reason for it anymore.
The whole idea was that the LF MK VIII could stand-in for the LF IX. With the XVI at 18lbs the VIII is redundant.
So kiss goodbye to our representative Spit lineup.

But Krusty the average MA furball is 20k down, alts perfect for a LF XVI, even with 25lbs boost its still easy meat in a furball. Boost only lasts 5 mins after which its just a Merlin 266 Spit XVI.

Gotta look at it from more then just performance Kev.

Scenario use, skins etc, I still think we should get the LFVIII. It's got better range then the XVI and is more refined. It was the ultimate Merlin Spit.

And no Krusty the XVI with +18 wouldn't perform better then the VIII with +18. Performance was the same if not better for the VIII.

The issue was production and it was faster to produce IXs and XVIs without different ailerons, retractable tail wheel, etc.

Since the performance gap wasn't that much it made sense to go with the quicker bird to get to the squadrons.

If we're going to crumble already then you'd better suggest a tall tail tropicalized, full span, E wing Spitfire LFIXe that can stand in for the VIII for the skinners, and be called an LFXVIe if you don't look too hard for the clipped wings.

But lets not do that yet

Dan/CorkyJr

Squire · « **Reply #36 on:** August 04, 2005, 04:22:37 PM »

Just wait untill you announce an event with the XVI standing in for the LF IX or LF VIII.

Never ending b*** session about how its cheating bacuse the XVI has .50s and 3 bombs and clipped wings.

I aint kidding...

Kev367th · « **Reply #37 on:** August 04, 2005, 04:27:00 PM »

True Dan,
Unfortuneately the whiners usually get what they want, so no all conquering, uber duper 397mph Spit XVI.
Lol 397 mph and thats with 25lbs boost for 5 mins, sounds kinda sad don't ya think?
Doesn't even break the magical 400 mph barrier and they're up in arms about it.

Lets see how they like the 21lbs boost spit XIV, the whines will start as soon as it is officially announced, lol.
Nothing like a 2200HP Griffon to wake you up!

Should be thankful that the 25lbs boost Griffon 65 isn't being done - 2400HP+

Krusty · « **Reply #38 on:** August 04, 2005, 04:27:05 PM »

LOL now now, nobody's crumbling yet lol. It's not even in our hands. Pyro's the one making the decisions.

Guppy, I had forgotten the spit8 was LF when I made that comment, so it isn't accurate.

Karnak · « **Reply #39 on:** August 04, 2005, 04:31:24 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Guppy35
But lets not do that yet

Dan/CorkyJr

Yes, I'm not very happy with the sudden collapsing of lists into things that still leave big holes. I want the list Pyro is thinking of. The whole list. It looks nigh perfect to me.

Krusty · « **Reply #40 on:** August 04, 2005, 04:34:24 PM »

Have to agree. It actually has the opposite of holes, it has overlaps.

I simply share Pyro's concern for any aircraft that would have a 5700fpm climb rate.

Kev367th · « **Reply #41 on:** August 04, 2005, 04:34:54 PM »

Still don't understand how you can happily go along with taking a 1943 LF IX and throwing and 'e' wing on it without any of the performance enhancements and call it 1944 LF XVI?

The climb rate is good, but only for a limited time (5 mins) hell you'd use that getting to alt to intercept incoming bogies. Its also not as though pressing WEP results in the instant 30mph ish speed increase.
Yyou still aint gonna catch most of them as they will already be at top speed and probably diving in.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #42 on:** August 04, 2005, 04:42:35 PM »

I sure missed it somewhere, but where is the information showing this monster climb rate for the XVI with +25 boost?

Can't find that 5700 FPM climb anywhere in my Spit library.

That seems to be the boogie man right now.

Does anyone have the XVI pilots notes? I looked for em at the RAF museum when Iwas there but the best they had was the LFVIII with the Merlin 66

And as mentioned previously, even with +18 boost for 5 minutes, the LFVIII was still limited to +12 boost for climb with the Merlin 66. Only the Merlin 70s for the high alt birds were OK'd for +18 boost to climb in the VIII pilot's notes.

So can someone show me where the LFIXe/XVIe was approved to climb at +25 boost?

Seems like thats what all the fuss is about. If it's actually like the Merlin 66 in the VIII and the climb boost is less then combat boost, then the climb rate is a non issue right?

Dan/CorkyJr

Squire · « **Reply #43 on:** August 04, 2005, 04:45:40 PM »

"I want the list Pyro is thinking of."

No s***, is there some reason we should be saying we dont want or need an VIII if he's considering it?

You guys drinking before dinner again?

Krusty · « **Reply #44 on:** August 04, 2005, 04:46:06 PM »

Guppy I believe it was in the original "I spoke to Pyro" thread. Near the beginning. I think Kev relayed that Pyro was concerned about the climb rate a spit16 with +25 would have, and then somebody posted a couple of links about spitfire data, including climb rates and such. It's in the first or second page of the 4-5 page thread.