Author Topic: Spit XVI - please reconsider (Read 3580 times)

Kev367th · « **Reply #60 on:** August 04, 2005, 06:15:47 PM »

Krusty -

A quick look as some pics on the web seems to bear this out.
Every highback has the 2 cannons + 4 ports.
Every bubbletop has the 2 cannons + 2 stubs.

Unfortuneately the 'e' wing designation denotes 2x20 + 2x50 +1000lb bomb load.
There was no provision for 4x303 by 1944

notice no access panel where the 303 would be.

Compare to 'c' wing (I know Dan)

Access panels clearly visible.

[edit] Yup haven't found a single pic that can definately be identified as a 16 that contradicts this.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #61 on:** August 04, 2005, 06:26:13 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
E-wing allowed either 4x303 or 2x50cal. Just depends on what they had their hands on at the time.

I say leave the bubble off -- lol it's personal opinion, but if it's got bubble it's not a true spit!!

E Wing DID NOT have 4 303 option

E Wing was standardized with 2 20mm, 2 .5 cal MGs and the wing hard points outside of the cannon bays.

IF you see LFIXe or LFXVIe it means it has 2 20mm and 2 .5 mgs. the E designation was specifically for that armament type

Go here, where we hashed it out and then some

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=20000

The bubble canopy had nothing to do with the introduction of the E wing. E Wing was in use almost a year before the first bubble top Spits arrived.

Be sure and look at the images in that thread I posted. It explains it well. Also the comments from the guys who work on Spits.

Dan/CorkyJr

Kev367th · « **Reply #62 on:** August 04, 2005, 06:32:53 PM »

Yes Dan, but -

What is said is at the same time they converted the 16 to the 'e' wing, the bubbletop was fitted. Not that the 'e' wing became available in 1944.
Can you confirm they started off as 2x20 + 4x303?

I have yet to find a pic contradicting this. Including the famous silver/red one.

Wish I'd never gone looking for Spit 16 climb rates ^^&^&%^%$@

Guppy35 · « **Reply #63 on:** August 04, 2005, 06:37:35 PM »

Clarifying.

First image is an LFIXe. NOTE! bomb racks under wings, clipped wing, shorter cannon shroud of the E wing.

Next one is also an LFIXe with full span wings. Note that both images are high back Spit IXs.

Again, E wing is purely an armament designation specific to 2 20mm and 2 .5 mgs

Dan/CorkyJr

Squire · « **Reply #64 on:** August 04, 2005, 06:45:09 PM »

You guys have to understand that the E wing was the standardized fighter-bomber wing with 3 hardpoints and the .50 cal + 20mm loadout.

All the XVIs were "Universal" or "E" wing armed.

"C" wings had one hardpoint only...it was never used on the XVI.

The 1st XVIs had regular canopies. Later ones had the bubble. Many (most?) had clipped wings.

Not surprising since the 1st XVI entered service in October 1944, by which time the E wing was standard on Spit IXs and XIVs. The RAF wasnt bothering with C wings anymore by then.

The XVI was a standardized version of the LF IXe with a Packard Merlin. 3 hardpoints, 20mm and .50 cal., broad rudder.

Kev367th · « **Reply #65 on:** August 04, 2005, 06:45:54 PM »

Only one problem Dan, they are IXe's NOT XVIe's.

I am not disputing the use of use of 'e' wings, what I am saying is that orignally the XVI had the earlier 4x303 + 2x20mm option.

Then when the were fitted with 'e' wings a bubbletop was fitted at the same time.
So far every pic I have found on the web that can clearly be indentified as a XVIe seems to confirm this.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #66 on:** August 04, 2005, 06:47:59 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kev367th
Just found out something else interesting -

Intially the LF XVI were fitted with the 2x20mm 4x303 option.

At the same time the 'e' wing was introduced the bubbletop canopy was fitted, and the larger tail fitted.

Comments?

See the photos I posted of Spit LFIXe's. Bubble top had nothing to do with the larger rudder or the E wing.

Whoever wrote that was wrong

Record cards for the first XVI lists it as an XVIe.

I'm talking production XVIe's btw not the Spits used to test the Merlin 266.

Bubble canopy didn't show up until March/April 45, E wing right after D-Day from everything I can find.

Logbook I have of a 91 Squadron Spit XIV pilot shows that his E wing Spit XIV was July 14, 1944 and he was the Flight Commander. He designates clearly that it was an XIVe. It was a high back too. Lots of photos of high back E wing XIVs as well as XVIs and IXs.

Dan/CorkyJr

mauser · « **Reply #67 on:** August 04, 2005, 06:51:08 PM »

This and some of the other Spitfire remodel threads has been educational for me. I haven't had the time to read/research on aircraft variants and performance for a long time now, and never really paid attention to Spitfires. From what is written here, I would have no qualms with Pyro's list, nor a XVI with 25lbs. boost. As the MA stands right now, it doesn't seem like that particular XVI would cause mass migrations. There are enough people that fly particular aircraft just because they want to rather than because it's an MA-beater.

mauser

Kev367th · « **Reply #68 on:** August 04, 2005, 06:52:05 PM »

Coud you post a pic and put my mind at ease please

. I can't find ONE on the web.

Karnak · « **Reply #69 on:** August 04, 2005, 06:55:49 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
E-wing allowed either 4x303 or 2x50cal. Just depends on what they had their hands on at the time.

No, "e" wing was just the two 20mm and two .50s. The Universal wing was the eight .303s or two 20mm and four .303s or four 20mm/

Quote

I say leave the bubble off -- lol it's personal opinion, but if it's got bubble it's not a true spit!!

Ginger Lacey agreed with you. When low backed Mk XIVs were delivered to his squadron in Burma he refused them saying, if I recall correctly, "That's not a Spitfire." So they gave them to a squadron that was flying war weary Hurri IICs and got some high back Mk XIVs for Lacey.

I also agree with you.

Kev367th · « **Reply #70 on:** August 04, 2005, 06:59:23 PM »

Panic over found one, even starred in the movie BoB

Just wanted to make sure everything was spot on.

Interesting site
http://www.warbirdregistry.org/spitregistry/spitregistry.html#mk16

Guppy35 · « **Reply #71 on:** August 04, 2005, 07:01:32 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kev367th
Only one problem Dan, they are IXe's NOT XVIe's.

I am not disputing the use of use of 'e' wings, what I am saying is that orignally the XVI had the earlier 4x303 + 2x20mm option.

Then when the were fitted with 'e' wings a bubbletop was fitted at the same time.
So far every pic I have found on the web that can clearly be indentified as a XVIe seems to confirm this.

OK two photos of XVIs from the same Canadian squadron both taken in April 45. Both have E wings. Note that the bubble top was the first to reach the squadron and it was April 45.

Part of the strengthening of the wing and adding the hard points was not having the guns outboard of the cannon bays. The LFIXe and XVIe were built side by side at the same factory and ended up doing the same job. Tons of photos of XVIes and IXes with the wing hardpoints and bombs or rockets out there.

Again this image shows two XVIs flying at the same time in the same RCAF squadron. That was common at that point to have both bubble top and high backs. 41 Squadron Spit XIVs were the same as I've seen photos of bubble tops and high backs operating together.

Dan/CorkyJr

Squire · « **Reply #72 on:** August 04, 2005, 07:01:46 PM »

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Fea1/501-600/Fea563_Spitfire_Main/08.jpg

Model of an RCAF XVI.

Kev367th · « **Reply #73 on:** August 04, 2005, 07:06:55 PM »

Thank, as I said wanted to make sure everything was 100% accurate, come to far to let something slip by.

Squire - Models are notoriously inacurrate, how many Spit IXc can you buy, yet really there never really was a Spit IXc, IXb would be more accurate. 'c' wing was orignally 4x20mm.
But thanks for taking the time to help and participate, especially the Seafire L III info, that could be quite a handfull in the MA dont you reckon.

Ah, I can dream

Guppy35 · « **Reply #74 on:** August 04, 2005, 07:09:08 PM »

Kev, for what it's worth, the change from high back to bubble top XVI took place somewhere in the TB serialed Spits. A surviving Spit, TB863 is a high back XVIe and the one pictured is TB886 so somewhere within that stretch it changed.

Dan/CorkyJr