109 article (from www.virtualpilots.fi)

[Crumpp]

And yet, During the BoB, the LW runs on 87 oct, - and a good bit longer, while the RAF FC is on 100 oct.

As the allied report points out Angus, allied fuel ratings and German fuel ratings do not equate.

Read paragraph two under the circled portion:



All the best,

Crumpp

[Angus]

Ok. Supermarine, armed with a RR engine are doing 340 mph on the deck on long duration as an average in 1931. I think the engine was running on some funny juices, and pumped out power in excess 2000 hp+

Same was done with a production line Spitfire with a production line engine in the late 30's. London-Paris and back it was.
So, I think the Brits pretty much knew about all sorts of fiddling with fuels by the start of WW2.
The Germans, as far as I see, have 2 scores quite important. One is the 209, - the Speed it achieved is phenomenal, - but it is a custom aircraft and not a production line fighter, - it's a RACER.
Second is their technique of synthetic fuel production, - but out of ill necessity perhaps? Well, it worked.
Oh, btw, I've seen an airborne 108 Taifun, - nice little birdie



BTW, never heard that C3 was used in the BoB.

[Horrido!]

The Heinkel He100 was a fighter, and it set the record (before being usurped by the Me209) of 463.92 mph in 1939.

[Crumpp]

So, I think the Brits pretty much knew about all sorts of fiddling with fuels by the start of WW2.

Hey Angus!

Sure they did.  No claims are being made about British fuel AFAIK.

Same was done with a production line Spitfire with a production line engine in the late 30's. London-Paris and back it was.

Are you refering to this aircraft on display at the 1939 Brussel's Aero Show?

It's the factory's "Speed" Spitfire production machine:



Here it is on the runway, nice prop!:



All the best,

Crumpp

[Angus]

Yup, that's the one.
Blue I belive.
TY for the info, didn't know what happened to it.
Anyway, that German fuel availability is enough to keep ones head spinning.
Some notes of interest though is that they should have been pretty well stocked in 1940, - getting vast amounts from the USSR and Roumania. It would have became worse as soon as they invaded the USSR.
Then, oil is needed for more than just the airforce.
To save oil, quite much of the Wehrmacht's stuff was actually horse-drawn.
BTW, our old vet is an ex horse-vet from the German cavalry on the eastern front! Almost 90, quite alive and kicking!

[Crumpp]

Hey Angus!

You are correct about the color so this must be the aircraft.

While a 2000hp "production" motor using a special fuel blend was considered the plane flew with a 2100hp modified engine.

Both motors used special fuel containing 20 % methonal.

I think it was "production" in so far as a NASCAR racer is "stock".

To save oil, quite much of the Wehrmacht's stuff was actually horse-drawn.

I think most armies were horsedrawn in the late 1930's.

The last US Army Calvary charge was on December 1941 by the 26th Cavalry of the Philippine Scouts.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Angus]

Hey Crumpp
Horsedrawn actually applies well into WW2 from the German side, and a lot by the Russians. (Source, Len Deighton's "Blood, Tears and Folly" and some more)
In the latest parts of WW2, the LW also used oxen to pull aircraft around the ramps. This was AFAIK already in 1944.
Now, a wee more on that blue Spitty...
At 3200 rpm and boost +28.5 running on some schneider juice, this Merlin II crossed 2000hp. The juice was gasoline, benzol and methanol (20-60-20) and leaded too. The aircraft was no. 48 of the line. This was flying in November 1938.
The juices restricted engine life of course, which is rather logical, right? This one ran on 2000 hp+ at "some minutes at a time".

[Kurfürst]

Hmm, Angus, it may well be the Brits were toying with 2000HP engines before WW2. Obviously it was not ready for production, otherwise it would be stupid not to use it... toying and ready for industrial tolerances are two VERY different things.

As for racers, you might want to take a look into the stuff. The thing that pumped the 109R/209V1 ahead was doing 2700 HP in 1939 - just to mock, the Speed Spitfire project were cancelled as seen futile to continoue after that. The previous Mtt racer was a true stock 109E with improvements, did iirc 655kph? or about 400mph.But that was not the only record, 109s set a number of - long trip - records b4 that, crossing the alps etc.

And your statements re100 octane, err, there`s less than convincing evidence that the FC would only run on that during the BoB, and the LW used the C-2/C-3 at exactly the same time, from June/July. Developments started much earlier though... the 601N was started well before the war. Moreover, if we can believe the Fischer-Tropsch arhives, 100oct/C-3 made up 2/3s of their avgas prod.

Wehrmacht horses, true, and the simple reason the whole army was too vast for the industry`s capacity. The BEF may have been fully mechanized, but it was just 300 000 odd men. The Wehrmacht was 6 million+... ditto for Russians, even after they got shiploads of L-L trucks, Ivan was still advancing on foot. Too many Ivans I guess.

PS : Bad points for Horrido! for not posting pics of the Mercedes SSK.

[Angus]

Hehe:
"Hmm, Angus, it may well be the Brits were toying with 2000HP engines before WW2. Obviously it was not ready for production, otherwise it would be stupid not to use it... toying and ready for industrial tolerances are two VERY different things.

As for racers, you might want to take a look into the stuff. The thing that pumped the 109R/209V1 ahead was doing 2700 HP in 1939 - just to mock, the Speed Spitfire project were cancelled as seen futile to continoue after that.  The previous Mtt racer was a true stock 109E with improvements, did iirc 655kph? or about 400mph.But that was not the only record, 109s set a number of - long trip - records b4 that, crossing the alps etc."

The Engine, once again was a production line Merlin II being modded. But you are right, for field use this was not practical.
I know about the power of the 209, heard figures close to 3000 hp's actually, - but I have never heard that it was in any way a production line aircraft, and therefor never seen anything to support that. It was however published in that way originally for propoganda reasons.
The Speed Spitfire was basically cancelled because it was seen that it would not break the absolute speed record (Wonder what it would have done with 2700 hp though), - anyway IMHO it would have needed a different wing for the job. It was however noticed that the aircraft designed around a much smaller engine still handled very well with that amount of speed and power.
Oh, and BTW, this is really the first time I ever hear of C3 being used by the LW in the BoB and I have never seen any documents about it. About the use of 100 octs however there seems to be enough data. So, data?
Then for the rest, what happened to that 209? Is it still in one piece? did it cover many flights? It's a looker anyway

[Horrido!]

Speaking of performance vs. power: The Bf108A did 320 mph on only 250 hp. That's pretty nice I think.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
As for racers, you might want to take a look into the stuff. The thing that pumped the 109R/209V1 ahead was doing 2700 HP in 1939 - just to mock, the Speed Spitfire project were cancelled as seen futile to continoue after that. The previous Mtt racer was a true stock 109E with improvements, did iirc 655kph? or about 400mph.But that was not the only record, 109s set a number of - long trip - records b4 that, crossing the alps etc.

Moreover, if we can believe the Fischer-Tropsch arhives, 100oct/C-3 made up 2/3s of their avgas prod.
 

The 109E racer(Bf109V13) was as stock as the Spitfire High Speed a/c. The wings and fuselage were puttied and polished. A racer canopy was fitted. No guns fitted. The V13 topped out at 610.950kph.

Sure you don't mean the Bf108 for the distance records?

2700hp was test stand hp. In record trim, the DB601ARJ only put out 2300hp and could only run for 30 minutes before self destructing because of over heating of the coolant and oil. It could only stay in the air for ~35 minutes while the R-R 'R' engine had to float at a bouy, in the S6B for 6 hours, before flying for ~250 miles. The R-R 'R' engine, based on the Buzzard, in the S6B in 1931 put out 2783hp on the test stand (70" Hg, 60% methonal, 30% benzole, 10% acetone plus lead).

Here we go again with a general statement. How many litres is 2/3rds?


Horrido, 320mph is 514kph.

[Horrido!]

And?

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Horrido!
And?

That is ~100kph slower than the V13's record speed, set with ~6 times the hp.

The Bf108A did ~320kph on 250hp.

[Horrido!]

Ok, I guess that makes more sense. Thanks.

Still 200 mph on 250 hp is pretty good.

[Angus]

well, isn't the thumb rule that you need 4x the powe to double the speed for the same object, that is. ??