Author Topic: 109 article (from www.virtualpilots.fi)  (Read 9334 times)

Offline gripen

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109 article (from www.virtualpilots.fi)
« Reply #135 on: September 07, 2005, 06:05:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

Which is exactly what I said.  Unfortunately the Germans changed to composition of C3.  Simply research the results of allies changing fuel composition:

....

Unless of course you wish us to believe that in the 4 days from when the report was typed (19 June 1942) and Fabers plane fell into British hands (23 June 1942), the Germans were able to refine and transport sufficient quantities of improved alkane ratio fuel to the frontline Geschwaders.


Rather silly if you think about it.


I don't see your point, the RAE tests were done with improved version of the C3 (1943 version). There was no difference in rich mixture running between C3 and british 100 octane and slight difference was found in weak mixture.

The changes in allied fuels have nothing to with this.

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Maybe so however none of those aircraft are fighter varients.  They were crashed or landed by mistake during the "Terrorflieger" Campaign.  IIRC, they are FW190G's.  Completely different aircraft and motor set up from an FW190A fighter.


All three planes mentioned (PE882, PN999 and PM679) were captured intact, all landed to British airfields by error. After removing the racks these were basicly same as fighter variants. Same engine, same airframe etc. coming from same production lines.

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
However they did not have enough C3 fuel for flight-testing.  They did not even have enough to get a decent survey of the fuel composition as noted in the last section of the first page:


Actually the report says that the Germans did not utilize the potential of the C3 in their engines ie the BMEP of the engines did not reach the BMEP potential of the fuel. Basicly it means that fuel was not the limiting factor of the German engines (at least 1943) but more probably something else like cooling (internal and/or charge) or mechanical issues.

Notable thing is that the report notes difference in the weak mixture rating just like found out by RAE in above mentioned tests.

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Yes.  You can find it at the NASM archives.  It is in multiple documents actually.


Could you be a bit more specific? So far 14 blade cooler has been used as a certain way to regonice the 801TS. There were 801TS engines also with 12 blade cooler but there should be no other versions with 14 blade cooler (at least not in production planes).

IMHO photo evidence is the best way prove this kind of things.  
 
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
How much sense does it make to keep a piece of equipment that lowers your planes performance dramatically?


The BMW 801D2 was originally fitted with 12 blade cooler so there was no reason to keep some kind of equipment which was not fitted (like 14 blade cooler).

gripen

Offline Angus

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109 article (from www.virtualpilots.fi)
« Reply #136 on: September 07, 2005, 06:14:34 PM »
From Horrido:
"Still 200 mph on 250 hp is pretty good."

Hehe, yes indeed. Very good even for todays standards.
I was at the stick of a Socata the other day. With 4 persons on board and ample fuel, we flew at 140 kts with a 200 hp engine and a CS.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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109 article (from www.virtualpilots.fi)
« Reply #137 on: September 07, 2005, 11:33:59 PM »
Quote
I don't see your point, the RAE tests were done with improved version of the C3 (1943 version). There was no difference in rich mixture running between C3 and british 100 octane and slight difference was found in weak mixture.


I seriously doubt it Gripen.  Why don't you post the entire report or just the date and we can just completely clear the issue up.  

The timeline is completely off for Faber's engine.  That engine went to the Americans AFAIK.  Specifically the Wright Aero engine Company for detailed analysis in 1942.

Quote
After removing the racks these were basicly same as fighter variants. Same engine, same airframe etc. coming from same production lines.


Wrong on many levels.  Quite a few differences in the design and they did not come off the same production lines.   The G series was built exclusively by Focke Wulf and had it's own production runs.  While many parts are interchangeable some key components are not.  The G series required the F 602 (G1), F 69 (G2, 3), or F613 (G8) power egg.  While the F series in an emergency, could exchange power eggs for the F600 or F66 of the A series, the G series was expressly forbidden to use any other set up.  

You cannot put a G series back to Air Superiority fighter performance without major changes to the engine and aircraft.

Besides the wing racks, the most significant differences in the G series are the engine set up. First the internal intakes are larger and the cooling gills were not adjustable. The engine itself was equipped with different plugs and Kommandgerat settings. A different ignition harness was used and the G lacked the pressurized ignition harness of the A series.  

It also lacked a synthetic rubber seal around the engine in the cowling found in the A series. This seal in all likelihood reduced cooling drag significantly as well. Rubber was strategic material that was in short supply in Germany. Although the German rubber was synthetic, it still required latex in the formula.

The G series performance was so dismal that Focke Wulf removed the cowling armament in an attempt to reduce drag. This helped but the aircraft was still significantly slower than the Anton. The G series did climb at a steeper angle and slower speed than the Anton as well.

Focke Wulf also continued to experiment with various wing rack designs to further reduce drag.  In the FW-190G8 we see the ETC 503 racks introduced just as the FW-190F8.  Cowling MG's reappear early in production until finally all FW-190G8's are redesignated FW-190F8.

The G series was an air tractor, set up to haul loads long distances and not a pure performance set up like the air superiority fighter variants.  No amount of ballasting or removal of wing racks will make it a fighter.

Quote
There were 801TS engines also with 12 blade cooler but there should be no other versions with 14 blade cooler (at least not in production planes).


"White 1" was not equipped with the rubber seal and mounted a 14 bladed Lufterrad using a BMW801D2 in the F66 power egg.  "Black 3" has the seal and so don't some of our other FW-190A8's.

Quote
Actually the report says that the Germans did not utilize the potential of the C3 in their engines ie the BMEP of the engines did not reach the BMEP potential of the fuel.


Yes it does say that in the rich settings.

It also says that C 3 fuel was equal to the allied fuels and that the allies did not understand the method the Germans were rating their fuels.

It also says that allied ratings were not direct equivalents.

After the war, the NACA did quite a bit of research into the properties of high contents of aromatics, paraffin’s, and alkanes for high antiknock resistant fuels.  These became standard in post war high performance aviation fuels.

The allies knew very little about them during the war.  In fact they could not even identify the antiknock agents used in C3:



And they solely relied on the octane number, which as stated by the allied petrochemist, does not give a true reading of the fuel rating.

Again, fuel is an issue with our engine rebuild we will have to overcome.

Quote
The changes in allied fuels have nothing to with this.


If you were not so blinded you would see that they have everything to do with the issue.

They simply show how a small change in fuel composition can have far-reaching and unforeseen negative performance consequences.

It is absurd to think the allies could stay abreast of every change the Germans made to their fuel or be able to run captured aircraft at the same level of performance the trained user's could.

Foreign tests of captured equipment simply reveal the "at least" performance of a design.

Quote
I don't see your point, the RAE tests were done with improved version of the C3 (1943 version).


Prove it.  Your making the claim and frankly the timeline does not match up at all with the history of Faber’s aircraft.

Additionally you seem to be claiming that the Germans stopped attempting to improve their fuel in 1943?  That these were the last changes made and all efforts to increase performance stopped.

Not only is it not true, it does not pass the common sense test.


All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: September 07, 2005, 11:41:25 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Angus

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109 article (from www.virtualpilots.fi)
« Reply #138 on: September 08, 2005, 06:12:46 AM »
I'll bet though that the Germans had problems providing enough of their delicate juice during the late war. Same goes with many sorely needed materials, such as the rubber and many alloys.
Still the desigh and technique are impressive.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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109 article (from www.virtualpilots.fi)
« Reply #139 on: September 08, 2005, 10:23:07 AM »
Quote
I'll bet though that the Germans had problems providing enough of their delicate juice during the late war.


Not really until December of 1944 did things become critical for them.

http://www.anesi.com/ussbs02.htm#taoo

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline gripen

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109 article (from www.virtualpilots.fi)
« Reply #140 on: September 08, 2005, 03:23:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
I seriously doubt it Gripen.  Why don't you post the entire report or just the date and we can just completely clear the issue up.


The report is dated April 1943 and entire report can be found from the PRO among BMW 801 papers (I don't know the exact reference). Below is one image to verify the specific gravity of the used C3 fuel.



BTW RAE did test run several BMW 801s in test stand.
 
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
You cannot put a G series back to Air Superiority fighter performance without major changes to the engine and aircraft.


The PE882 and PM679 were Fw 190A-4/U8 and both featured cowling mgs (according to report and pictures) ie the power egg was Fw 190A version.

Direct quote from the RAE report on the PE882:

"Generally speaking, this is the same aircraft as previously tested"

The PN999 was a Fw 190A-5/U8 but I have not seen good enough pictures to check if it had cowling guns.

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
First the internal intakes are larger and the cooling gills were not adjustable.


Actually all three mentioned planes had the adjustable cooling gills (can be verified from pictures as well as from the report) in addition the EB-104 tested in Wright Field featured the adjustable cooling gills as well (mentioned several times in the report). It should be noted that Armin Faber's plane had no adjustable cooling gills.

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
"White 1" was not equipped with the rubber seal and mounted a 14 bladed Lufterrad using a BMW801D2 in the F66 power egg.  "Black 3" has the seal and so don't some of our other FW-190A8's.


There is a picture in the White 1 site featuring a 14 blade cooler but what is the engine? Text claims 801G but that's unlikely, seem to be not the original engine of the White 1?

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
If you were not so blinded you would see that they have everything to do with the issue.


All I see is questionable quoting from your side.

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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109 article (from www.virtualpilots.fi)
« Reply #141 on: September 08, 2005, 04:39:09 PM »
Quote
The PE882 and PM679 were Fw 190A-4/U8 and both featured cowling mgs (according to report and pictures) ie the power egg was Fw 190A version.


FW-190A4/U8 is the FW-190G1:

http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/variants.htm

So your assumption is wrong.  Common mistake made by those who do not know the design.

Quote
The report is dated April 1943


Given that the density does not change in the fuel inspite of major changes in the composition:



And the last change the allies were aware of occurred in summer 1943:



I would put my chances of winning the lottery higher than the allies chances of stubbling on the correct fuel settings for the BMW801 based on this bench test.

If we look at the USN test conducted in Feb '44 we can see rough running is noted:



Last sentence on the page:



Facts are the RAE characterized the BMW801 as a "rough running" motor and felt it was normal for the type.

The RAE kept close tabs on the USN trials and greatly assited the United States in the analysis of the data.

In fact they corrected the report offering their experience.  Here is what they had to say about the roll rate vs the Corsair:



On a side note - Further proof the USN trials were conducted with an FW-190 with out of adjustment ailerons.


The RAE had nothing to say about the "rough running".  

Your assumption that the RAE permantely solved the "rough running" problem and were able to develop full power out of the BMW801 series simply does not make sense given the facts.

They solved it for a brief moment in time.  However circumstances did not allow them to take full advantage.  They never flight-tested the one motor that they appear to have gotten to run properly.  By their next opportunity both allied and germans fuels had changed again putting them back to square one.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline gripen

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109 article (from www.virtualpilots.fi)
« Reply #142 on: September 08, 2005, 05:24:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

So your assumption is wrong.


Hm... I'm not making assumptions, all I have said about these planes can be verified from the reports and pictures. As an example a quote on cooling gills:



It proves that you are wrong.

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Given that the density does not change in the fuel....


All I have said above is that the documents prove that at least in the RAE tests the BMW 801s did run well once the problems were solved; there is documented proof as well as couple pilots comments. The documents also prove that the fuels were right for the timeframe, spring 1943.

The US tests are other tests and were done with different fuels (only the Wright Field report claims used fuel, grade 140) and they had much less experience with the 801 than RAE.

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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109 article (from www.virtualpilots.fi)
« Reply #143 on: September 08, 2005, 06:04:10 PM »
Quote
Text claims 801G but that's unlikely, seem to be not the original engine of the White 1?


Of course we are not rebuilding the original motor.  

BMW801's in flight worthy rebuildable condition are some what rare, you think?

Very, very little of any restored flying WWII Warbird is original.  Most parts simply are not airworthy after 60 years.

In fact our biggest problem is reproducing 1940's tool marks with modern machine tools.  Modern tooling is simply too accurate.  18 out of 19 wing spars were recently rejected because of this!

A BMW801G was the engine for a Ju88 bomber.  Crankcase is the same but the internals are different.  We are rebuilding it as a BMW801D2.

The motor is only laying right here:

http://www.white1foundation.org/photos/recovery4.jpg

We have it at the shop.

You can clearly see it is a BMW801D2 if you know what to look for in motor ID.

Quote
Actually all three mentioned planes had the adjustable cooling gills (can be verified from pictures as well as from the report) in addition the EB-104 tested in Wright Field featured the adjustable cooling gills as well (mentioned several times in the report). It should be noted that Armin Faber's plane had no adjustable cooling gills.


This is really getting tiresome Gripen.

The G series had cowl flaps:

http://www.white1foundation.org/parts/cowlflaps12.jpg

It lacked the cowl flap drive:

http://www.white1foundation.org/parts/umlenkgetriebe.jpg

The gills are not adjustable from the cockpit.  Check out were the cowl flap drive control is in the cockpit of an FW190A.  Then look in a G series cockpit and look were the two drop tank release leavers are located.

To spell it out, the cowl flap drive was removed to make room in the G series.

Later G's, depending on the trager, got a cowl flap drive back.

It pushes and pulls on the rod linkage opening and closing the flaps.


Quote
All I have said above is that the documents prove that at least in the RAE tests the BMW 801s did run well once the problems were solved; there is documented proof as well as couple pilots comments. The documents also prove that the fuels were right for the timeframe, spring 1943.


They prove the RAE ran a BMW801 smoothly on a bench once and never test flew it.  Due to fuel changes and the continued "rough running" found in allied test flights it has no bearing on future tests except to you Gripen.

And that correctly set up the BMW801 was not a rough running engine which is what the FW190 veterans claim.

Nothing else.

If the RAE says they had adjustable cowl flap drives on an FW190G1, they misidentified the 190 I suspect.

Adjustable cowl flaps did not come out until the FW190A5 so it is unlikely the RAE was testing FW190A4/U1's.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: September 08, 2005, 06:46:23 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Crumpp

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109 article (from www.virtualpilots.fi)
« Reply #144 on: September 08, 2005, 08:23:59 PM »
Should read FW-190A4/U8's not FW-190A4/U1's.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline gripen

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109 article (from www.virtualpilots.fi)
« Reply #145 on: September 08, 2005, 10:52:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

This is really getting tiresome Gripen.


The adjustable cooling gills were present in the Fw 190 starting from late production A-4. While Fw 190G series was developed from the Fw 190A with U8 kit, these versions are not identical.

Regarding the rest, not much reason to continue, you just can't never admit that you are wrong.

gripen

Offline Horrido!

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109 article (from www.virtualpilots.fi)
« Reply #146 on: September 09, 2005, 05:31:38 AM »
He's not wrong Gripen. You obviously are.

Offline Angus

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109 article (from www.virtualpilots.fi)
« Reply #147 on: September 09, 2005, 05:42:34 AM »
I have no doubt what the 190 could do on a good day (full engine performance and perfect trimming/aileron setting).
But as with other types and other airforces and different situations, you could expect some variety in combat.
Crumpp summed this up nicely when he said that foreign testing would usually show what the aircraft was AT LEAST capable of doing.
Just my 2 cents....;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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109 article (from www.virtualpilots.fi)
« Reply #148 on: September 09, 2005, 07:46:28 AM »
Quote
While Fw 190G series was developed from the Fw 190A with U8 kit, these versions are not identical.


The U8 was blanket redesignated as the G series.

http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/variants.htm

The prototype was the FW-190A5/U13.

The FW-190A4/U8 was not a prototype.  It was the production FW190G1.

However if the RAE were adjusting cooling flaps on an FW190A4/U8 or an FW190G1, they must have ordered them from the manufacturer since they obviously know more about the design than the builders.

My question is simple.   What part number did they use? :





All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: September 09, 2005, 07:49:36 AM by Crumpp »

Offline gripen

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109 article (from www.virtualpilots.fi)
« Reply #149 on: September 09, 2005, 07:49:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Horrido!
He's not wrong Gripen. You obviously are.


Hm... As noted above the RAE report on the PE882 directly says that the cooling gills are adjustable from cockpit. The Wright Field report on the EB-104 (FTR-1102-ND) says also directly that the cooling gills on that plane are adjustable (also the performance graphs in the report claim cooling flap position, closed for speed test, 1/2 open for climb test).

So please tell me what should I believe?

It's pretty much irrelevant what should the configuration of the supposed standard Fw 190G or what ever if we know with 100% certainty that these tested planes (EB-104 and PE882, planes used for speed testing) had adjustable cooling gills.

gripen