Author Topic: Fixing heavy bombers  (Read 2477 times)

Offline MadSquirrel

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Fixing heavy bombers
« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2006, 05:03:08 AM »
What I am saying is if these dive bombing buff drivers have to sit in the sight for a second, they won't be able to set salvo for 20, .05 delay and dive, then hit F6, and the bomb drop switch.  Yes, going to F6 will make the buffs level out, but not before these carpet bombers would be able to release their ords.  These guys don't want the challenge of High altitude bombing, they want to bomb, get kills and get more buffs.  It is very rare that they go home.  They don't care.  They carpet bomb a V-Base get 3 kills to the cost of their one life (3 Planes, one life) and if they die, so what?  

Dive bombing buffs are a no skill way to get kills.  What kind of skill does it take to fly 3 planes into a base and carpet bomb?  You get 3 planes, by the time they shoot down 2, you can still drop.  Lancasters can take up to 7 hits from an Ostwind.  A 37mm projectile hitting a aircraft moving 300 miles per hour verses 3 Lancaster’s dropping 9, 1000 lb. bombs and 1, 4000 lb. bomb.  Thus creating a kill zone that is about 100 yards wide by about 1000 yards long.  And dropping on a vehicle that if not stopped is doing at best 25 miles per hour.  Gee, what skill that must take.  Oooohhh.  What a stud that buff driver is.  He  just dropped 39,000 lbs. of bombs directly onto some virtually stationary vehicles.  That is skill.  His mother is so proud of him.  He has move up from his Nintendo.

Or is the buff driver that drops from 10,000 feet and predicts where a vehicle will be to kill it.  Or has to swing wide to line up for his drop and hit each target in one pass.  That buff driver earns my respect.  That takes some time and skill.  Not only to hit the target, but to survive the hordes of fighters trying to kill ya.  You might make it back, Skippy just lost all his buffs and went back for more.  He doesn't care.  Instant gratification.  No skill.

That I think is what is a major problem with this game.  Give me a vehicle or weapon that will allow me to defend against that lame tactic.  Or fix the problem by making the Buff drivers have to use the bomber as it was intended.

I just think that if the F6 is the only thing they have to do, they will just pop and drop.  Still dive-bombing.

For those that spend 90% of their time in the air, they probably think this is a dumb thread and could care less.  For those that do it, they will defend there right to dive bomb no matter how lame it is.  For those that spend time on the ground, or have Lancaster’s dive bombing the runways and looping over to do it again, it is a problem.  As I recall, Jimmy Stewart was a B-25 driver, not a Lancaster driver and I am sure he never dove in and looped his buffs in formation 500 feet off the ground.

OK, My 2 cents.

LTARsqrl  <>
:aok

Offline bj229r

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Fixing heavy bombers
« Reply #61 on: February 21, 2006, 06:16:31 AM »
forcing them to F6 is the greaTEST hindrance we can give them--it WILL hose accuracy a bit, and bust some wings
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers

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Offline Jackal1

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Fixing heavy bombers
« Reply #62 on: February 21, 2006, 10:50:07 AM »
NOTICE: As of today everyone will play "my way". I`ll get back to ya on exactly what that is.
End of discussion.





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Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Beefcake

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Fixing heavy bombers
« Reply #63 on: February 21, 2006, 01:25:45 PM »
Hey guys, why not do what the game Planetside has done with its bomber? Put in an angle lock on the bombers so that when the plane is diving or climbing over a certain degree it locks the bombs from dropping. An example would be like locking the B17s bombs at 6 degrees down, this way the pilot can have some room to climb or dive but if they dive to much it locks the bombs from dropping.
Retired Bomber Dweeb - 71 "Eagle" Squadron RAF

Offline Lye-El

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Fixing heavy bombers
« Reply #64 on: February 21, 2006, 02:45:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by louman
I say make a spit factory that will knock out spit16's.....put some killer ack at that factory so you cant bomb it at low alt......If you build it they will come....even fighter jocks will be in buffs trying to knock out those stinking 16's!:aok


And a bomber factory to JABO. Even the fighter jocks would be for that. Great idea!:aok


i dont got enough perkies as it is and i like upen my lancs to kill 1 dang t 34 or wirble its fun droping 42 bombs

Offline ChopSaw

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Fixing heavy bombers
« Reply #65 on: February 21, 2006, 04:19:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MadSquirrel
What I am saying is if these dive bombing buff drivers have to sit in the sight for a second, they won't be able to set salvo for 20, .05 delay and dive, then hit F6, and the bomb drop switch.  Yes, going to F6 will make the buffs level out, but not before these carpet bombers would be able to release their ords.  These guys don't want the challenge of High altitude bombing, they want to bomb, get kills and get more buffs.  It is very rare that they go home.  They don't care.  They carpet bomb a V-Base get 3 kills to the cost of their one life (3 Planes, one life) and if they die, so what?  

Dive bombing buffs are a no skill way to get kills.  What kind of skill does it take to fly 3 planes into a base and carpet bomb?  You get 3 planes, by the time they shoot down 2, you can still drop.  Lancasters can take up to 7 hits from an Ostwind.  A 37mm projectile hitting a aircraft moving 300 miles per hour verses 3 Lancaster’s dropping 9, 1000 lb. bombs and 1, 4000 lb. bomb.  Thus creating a kill zone that is about 100 yards wide by about 1000 yards long.  And dropping on a vehicle that if not stopped is doing at best 25 miles per hour.  Gee, what skill that must take.  Oooohhh.  What a stud that buff driver is.  He  just dropped 39,000 lbs. of bombs directly onto some virtually stationary vehicles.  That is skill.  His mother is so proud of him.  He has move up from his Nintendo.

Or is the buff driver that drops from 10,000 feet and predicts where a vehicle will be to kill it.  Or has to swing wide to line up for his drop and hit each target in one pass.  That buff driver earns my respect.  That takes some time and skill.  Not only to hit the target, but to survive the hordes of fighters trying to kill ya.  You might make it back, Skippy just lost all his buffs and went back for more.  He doesn't care.  Instant gratification.  No skill.

That I think is what is a major problem with this game.  Give me a vehicle or weapon that will allow me to defend against that lame tactic.  Or fix the problem by making the Buff drivers have to use the bomber as it was intended.

I just think that if the F6 is the only thing they have to do, they will just pop and drop.  Still dive-bombing.

For those that spend 90% of their time in the air, they probably think this is a dumb thread and could care less.  For those that do it, they will defend there right to dive bomb no matter how lame it is.  For those that spend time on the ground, or have Lancaster’s dive bombing the runways and looping over to do it again, it is a problem.  As I recall, Jimmy Stewart was a B-25 driver, not a Lancaster driver and I am sure he never dove in and looped his buffs in formation 500 feet off the ground.

OK, My 2 cents.

LTARsqrl  <>
:aok


I agree.  Eliminating dive bombing is the goal.  We only disagree on the method to achieve this.  Given what you’ve said is common practice the F6 limitation may not, in itself, be sufficient.  I still think it’s important to create that F6 limitation, but adding an angle lock may be the slam dunk we need.  That is limiting the angle, pitch and possibly roll, that bombs can be released at.

As far as low level Lancs coming in to sweep your gv…….I’ve taken them apart with an Ostwind on many an occasion.  I would guess the much more talented LTAR would be better at it than I.  I know you guys have or had a gv division that did or does things I can’t.  I’m not excusing the dive bombing, just saying a low level drop/suicide run can be stopped.

Your suggestion to lock out the bomb drop unless calibration has been done a few seconds before would limit dive bombing.  No question.  However, I still maintain that it would create an untenable burden on those of us that level bomb in what is generally considered “the right way”.

We’re on the same page.  We just have to tweak a bit to come to consensus.

Offline MadSquirrel

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Fixing heavy bombers
« Reply #66 on: February 21, 2006, 05:09:39 PM »
I agree ChopSaw.  Just looking for something "Fool Proof".  At least the F6 fix would be a good start.  

Sure wish HiTech would say something about the practicality of this. . . . Hint, hint, hint.

LTARsqrl  <>

Offline MadSquirrel

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Fixing heavy bombers
« Reply #67 on: February 21, 2006, 06:09:58 PM »
Jackal1:
Quote
NOTICE: As of today everyone will play "my way". I`ll get back to ya on exactly what that is.


We play "Someone’s way" every day.  If it were not for people wanting to improve things, we would still be playing Aces High I if anything.

Right now "My way" is the few dive bombing buff bunnies that come in from 5000 feet, dive down, dropping 40,000 lbs. of bombs on one Panzer that is slowing there advance because he has the skill to kill vehicles from 4.0 out.

If that same person were to kill me on equal ground, I would salute them.  But I don't get to shoot at them with 3 different vehicle lives and something that has a 100 by 1000 yard kill zone.  

I am almost to the belief that these same buff bunnies couldn't drop a bomb and have it hit the ground from 10,000 feet and above like the real AHII Bomber Pilots do now.

LTARsqrl  <>  
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Offline ChopSaw

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Fixing heavy bombers
« Reply #68 on: February 21, 2006, 06:43:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MadSquirrel
Jackal1:
 

We play "Someone’s way" every day.  If it were not for people wanting to improve things, we would still be playing Aces High I if anything.

Right now "My way" is the few dive bombing buff bunnies that come in from 5000 feet, dive down, dropping 40,000 lbs. of bombs on one Panzer that is slowing there advance because he has the skill to kill vehicles from 4.0 out.


I liked AH1.  I'm not too crazy about some of the changes made in the switch to AH2.

However, I wouldn't mind knowing how to kill a gv at 4.0.  Do you give lessons?

Offline outbreak

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Fixing heavy bombers
« Reply #69 on: February 21, 2006, 07:29:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lazerr
LOL.. your not going to be able to talk to little Jimmy, 12 years old, with a fully loaded lancaster and ask him not to divebomb the piss out of you.

This isn't something you can change through the pilots, we need limitations on the bombers.  :rolleyes:


Some people do Low Level Bombing, Does this count as a Little Jimmy? I can be level at 1k and drop accurately with no Scope. My Point is, Some people prefer to low Level bomb and if it happens to be on GVs that is not dive bombing,  Dive bombing is coming in from 5k and aiming Nose down and letting all hell loose from your plane. That is just plane out Scarry to :cry

Offline LePaul

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Fixing heavy bombers
« Reply #70 on: February 21, 2006, 08:02:46 PM »
You know, as a buff guy, I have a higher regard for those guys who take the effort to get to alt, synch up and drop from the F6 mode.  People who do the death-dive-bombing to the constant NOE just to get eggs all over an airbase aren't real buff drivers to me.

I think the force method suggested is flawed.  You're trying to force a buff pilot to fly the way you "feel" a buff pilot should.  I think its ignorant to do so, because there are times when my buff is damaged and I'll try to jettison the remaining eggs as best I can.  With your plan, that wouldnt be feasible.

If you want to make another "popular" idea that the fighter guys would react to, perhaps disable the ability to fire at a con if they are coming at you head on.  I mean, this would eliminate the dread head ons, yes?  

Think its a bad idea to tell fighter guys how to fight?  Me too.

See my point  :)

Offline Softail

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Fixing heavy bombers
« Reply #71 on: February 21, 2006, 08:10:39 PM »
I am trying to see which method has the best advantage here.  

Method A:
Get in the bombsight.  Hold the "Y" key for 10-15 seconds.  Then adjust the bombers speed up or down via the E6B reading to the "calibrated" speed while approaching target. Match speed. Drop when cross-hairs cross target.

Or......

Method B: (B-24s only)
Get your speed somwhere between 170 - 190 mph (indicated speed).  set throttle to 3400 RPMs.  Leave manifold full.  Get in Bomb-Site and hold crosshairs on a spot for 10 seconds.   Drop when cross-hairs cross targets.

To me it would seem easier to adjust the sight rather than the speed of the bomber since they change speeds very slowly in level flight and it seems if you want it fast (ie turning around, you've just shot down that pesky Spit thats been "sneaking" up on you and are close to the base, etc)  Method B would work better.  If A works ... kewl.   But I rarely miss with Method B.  I guess its an old AH1 Hold-over of mine.  

My personal rule on how long to calibrate:
Low level bombing <8K 5 seconds sight calibration.  
Medium level bombing >8K to <15K 10 second sight calibration.
Hight Level bombing >15K  15 second sight calibration.

Good Bombing.

Softail

Offline outbreak

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Fixing heavy bombers
« Reply #72 on: February 21, 2006, 08:54:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by LePaul
You know, as a buff guy, I have a higher regard for those guys who take the effort to get to alt, synch up and drop from the F6 mode.  People who do the death-dive-bombing to the constant NOE just to get eggs all over an airbase aren't real buff drivers to me.

I think the force method suggested is flawed.  You're trying to force a buff pilot to fly the way you "feel" a buff pilot should.  I think its ignorant to do so, because there are times when my buff is damaged and I'll try to jettison the remaining eggs as best I can.  With your plan, that wouldnt be feasible.

If you want to make another "popular" idea that the fighter guys would react to, perhaps disable the ability to fire at a con if they are coming at you head on.  I mean, this would eliminate the dread head ons, yes?  

Think its a bad idea to tell fighter guys how to fight?  Me too.

See my point  :)


I Dont really care which way i fly, High Level, Or Low, I hit my targets without Regard, Low Level bombing takes more of a challenge as you have to Estimate where and when to drop the bomb, Level bombing is to easy, Level out hop in F6, Calibrate for 10-15 secs and boom ya can nail a fly with a piece of wood from 25k. Low level bombing is more fun and Energizin, Flying 200ft then climbing to 1k and setting salvo to **2 or 1**, And dropping on hangars or GVs, Not Everybody sets salvo to 14 and makes the base look like the moon.

Offline moneyguy

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Fixing heavy bombers
« Reply #73 on: February 21, 2006, 10:02:47 PM »
i just want a damn PBY!:O

Offline ChopSaw

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Fixing heavy bombers
« Reply #74 on: February 22, 2006, 01:50:14 AM »
Outbreak:

The idea is to eliminate unrealistic game play.  The fighter guys have more or less realistic flight models on their aircraft.  Parameters which cannot be ignored.  It is not unfair nor unrealistic to expect the same general restrictions of bombers and the method used in bombing.  It is not real or fair to have a heavy bomber drop bombs inverted or in any other fashion which ignores the fuselage or restrictions inherent in the close confines of the bomb bay.  Dive bombing heavies is silly, unfair and not realistic in any way.

I fly bombers almost exclusively.  I like them.  I like expending the patience to get them up there, up to speed and I like sneaking them in before the enemy knows I’m a threat or what I can do with the bombers.  I like shooting down fighter guys who don’t know how to attack me and I grin when faced with somebody who knows what they’re doing.  Yes, I die, but I die well and I learn something each time.