Author Topic: ENY is CARP  (Read 4295 times)

Offline Stang

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6127
ENY is CARP!
« Reply #90 on: August 16, 2005, 08:02:56 PM »
Chess piece fanatical loyalty is the reason ENY doesn't work.  

Go grab your chess set, pick up whatever little piece you fly for, and realize it's just a lousy piece of plastic.  Nothing more.

Offline IownU

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 243
ENY is CARP!
« Reply #91 on: August 16, 2005, 08:43:30 PM »
here here Stang

Offline Clifra Jones

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1210
ENY is CARP!
« Reply #92 on: August 16, 2005, 09:09:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stang
Chess piece fanatical loyalty is the reason ENY doesn't work.  

Go grab your chess set, pick up whatever little piece you fly for, and realize it's just a lousy piece of plastic.  Nothing more.


No, mine are made of Mexican Marble, but the analogy still holds.

Offline soda72

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5201
ENY is CARP!
« Reply #93 on: August 16, 2005, 09:10:26 PM »
Hmmm...  

what if HTC renames knights  to queens....

I bet bish and rook numbers would go up...

:D

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
ENY is CARP!
« Reply #94 on: August 16, 2005, 09:18:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
Lol just look at their stats, see what they killed the most, check saintan see what he's died in the most.
Guess even having numbers they still need to game the game.



eep!  300 deaths this tour already in Lancasters.  



ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline 715

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1835
ENY is CARP!
« Reply #95 on: August 16, 2005, 10:48:38 PM »
My 2 cents:  It's pretty clear that ENY does not solve inbalance.  It just annoys players who should be allowed to fly what they want.  It's also clear that there is serious inbalance and that it is quite unpleasant to be on the outnumbered side.  Currently it is the Bishop who are almost always outnumbered by a factor between 1.5 and 2 to 1.  In the past, it was the rooks that were seriously outnumbered.  Despite what some people with active egos say, it is not really very easy to overcome being heavily outnumbered.  It is also pretty clear that loyalty to a chess piece is silly.  There are no differences between people on different sides and those that switch usually instantly integrate into the new side, even if it is only for an evening.  Attributing characteristics to the people of different chess pieces is ridiculous.  However, switching sides is annoying because you don't want to loose interaction with particular "buddies" that you are used to flying (or driving) with.

I think the answer is squads.  Side inbalance that built up in the past was solved by particular squads moving sides.  When rooks were in the minority some squads did the right thing and moved to rook.  So many, in fact, that the rooks then became the majority.  Then some squads moved to Knights.  Knights now hold the majority.

I think the answer still lies with squads- where a modicum of discipline can affect change.  Indeed the best solution would be for some squads to choose to be floating regulators- they would pick the side outnumbered when they log on for their squad operations.  This would minimize the "buddy" factor as the buddies you interact with most, your squad, are still together.  Also, you would maintain association- in this case with something that actually is relevant, i.e. squad, versus something that is irrelevant, i.e. chess piece.

So I think the solution is the same as it was before: some squads have to make the decision to do the right thing.

715

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
ENY is CARP!
« Reply #96 on: August 16, 2005, 10:59:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 715
My 2 cents:  It's pretty clear that ENY does not solve inbalance.  It just annoys players who should be allowed to fly what they want.  It's also clear that there is serious inbalance and that it is quite unpleasant to be on the outnumbered side.  Currently it is the Bishop who are almost always outnumbered by a factor between 1.5 and 2 to 1.  In the past, it was the rooks that were seriously outnumbered.  Despite what some people with active egos say, it is not really very easy to overcome being heavily outnumbered.  It is also pretty clear that loyalty to a chess piece is silly.  There are no differences between people on different sides and those that switch usually instantly integrate into the new side, even if it is only for an evening.  Attributing characteristics to the people of different chess pieces is ridiculous.  However, switching sides is annoying because you don't want to loose interaction with particular "buddies" that you are used to flying (or driving) with.

I think the answer is squads.  Side inbalance that built up in the past was solved by particular squads moving sides.  When rooks were in the minority some squads did the right thing and moved to rook.  So many, in fact, that the rooks then became the majority.  Then some squads moved to Knights.  Knights now hold the majority.

I think the answer still lies with squads- where a modicum of discipline can affect change.  Indeed the best solution would be for some squads to choose to be floating regulators- they would pick the side outnumbered when they log on for their squad operations.  This would minimize the "buddy" factor as the buddies you interact with most, your squad, are still together.  Also, you would maintain association- in this case with something that actually is relevant, i.e. squad, versus something that is irrelevant, i.e. chess piece.

So I think the solution is the same as it was before: some squads have to make the decision to do the right thing.

715


This was true in the past, hasn't happened for a long time now.
I remember a lot of squads going Rooks (ours included) when they were low in numbers.

Only thing I can't figure is why squads have gone from Rooks and Bish to the Knits, making the numbers imbalance worse. To you guys 'the middle finger'. You are the problem!
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline Zazen13

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3600
ENY is CARP!
« Reply #97 on: August 17, 2005, 12:00:28 AM »
I posted this thought in another thread about fighter score and vulching in La7, but it pertains here. One reason the ENY thingy doesn't really work very well is psychological.

If you have a numbers advantage and you are not penalyzed a good many may, for the sense of fairplay, maybe not after or during one night but if a pattern emerges, switch to the undersided team. However, once you start penalizing, that is to say handicapping the advantaged team a very different sentiment emerges. The thoughts are then that well, yes we outnumber team X, but we are spotting them 20 ENY in aircraft and vehicles, therefore they are getting an advantage over us that should equal things out, therefore all is fair why switch?

So, by saying the ENY itself balances the arena, is saying that it's fine to have 200 Knights to 125 Rooks to 75 Bishops because Knights are being handicapped accordingly. The absolute only reason now that a Knight would switch is if his loyalty to a particular plane he was being denied access to was stronger than his loyalty to his friends, squaddies and countrymen, that is to say, not bloody likely...You see how this works psychologically?

That is why I have always been an advocate of incentives to move, as I also outlined in the Fighter score thread, as opposed to disincentives to stay put. It is quite a different thing for a person to realize if he moved to country X that he would receive some sort of benefit for doing so, a reward for his altruistic sportsmanship, not simply the priviledge of access to the entire planeset which most take for granted anyways.  Rather than handicap and penalyze, instead reward and bestow benefits to encourage the behavior you would like. Honey catches more flies than vinegar, the Wind and sun Vs. the man in the coat anology, , etc.

The other thing I mention in the other thread, I should have just cut n' pasted the whole thing. Is the ENY limiter affects everyone theoretically, but in actuality really affects the poor players and the new player most dramatically. Good players can adapt tactics to the situation, they are proficient in a wide variety of planes spanning the entire ENY spectrum, they often have established wingmen who are equally talented etc. It's the poor newbie plebe who can only manage to squeeze out a kill or two in a Niki or Spit before getting baby seal clubbed that suffers most. The problem is yes the newbie or weak player will probably move eventually, but so what, the poor bastard can only manage 25 kills in 100 sorties. However, the elite veterans who laugh at the ENY limiter kill 400 in 100 sorties and can do that in a p40B with as much alacrity as a Spit especially as part of a vulching gangbang horde.

So, you must move 16 noobs or poor players to equal out the one skilled veteran who does not move. Why not instead have a balancing system that tries to move the skilled 20% who account for 80% of MA kills with incentives to play for the underdog. Rather than the current ENY system that attempts to move the bottom 80% who account for only 20% of the MA kills through punishment, penalties and handicapping. The ENY system is psychologically bellybutton backwards, and inefficient in how it targets the least impactfull, but most numerous (ie: paying customer) demographic of the community in the MA. Not only that, but it punishes newbies, your newest customers, your future, the last people on Earth HTC should want to start wacking with the ENY Cat 'o Nine tails.

The end result of the ENY limiter in theory is a team that is numerically weak for an extended period may start to gain people from the other countries over time via the ENY limiter. They may begin to appear more numerically even on paper. But, the players they are getting are the ones most dramatically effected by the ENY handicap, that is the least skilled, the least experienced, the least talented and the least loyal, therefore the least likely to stay there long-term. So, even if and when the numbers do reach relative parity, the skill quotient definately does not. What you are left with is only the superficial  illusion of balance.



Zazen
« Last Edit: August 17, 2005, 01:31:56 AM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
ENY is CARP!
« Reply #98 on: August 17, 2005, 12:52:17 AM »
Help WAAHHHH I'm on a country with overwhelming numbers and I'm getting ENY'ed.
I don't want to leave the hoard because I might get shot down.
The ENV is evil.
Give me something to change sides WAHHHHHH. (You already get 2 things, access to all planes, extremely cheap perk stuff)

One problem with your theory Zazen - Newbies should have the least 'loyalty' to a country therefore shouldn't have a problem with changing sides, so they aren't punished as you put it.

Hell I'll take 23 perk rocket planes all night, ENV works great.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2005, 12:56:20 AM by Kev367th »
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline Zazen13

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3600
ENY is CARP!
« Reply #99 on: August 17, 2005, 12:59:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th

One problem with your theory Zazen - Newbies should have the least 'loyalty' to a country therefore shouldn't have a problem with changing sides, so they aren't punished as you put it.

 



Did you actualy read the whole post? They are punished, until they move, then they are punished in a different way.

Of course they move eventually, along with some other noobs and some guys who can only find a kill with a Spit and an Indian guide. Then,  forced to the overwhelmed country, they get gang spanked and baby seal clubbed by the loyal seasoned veterans who stayed with their friends and squadmates. Then the poor noob quits the game out of sheer frustration taking their $15 and their credit card with them.

Zazen
« Last Edit: August 17, 2005, 01:12:22 AM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline MIShill

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 182
ENY is CARP!
« Reply #100 on: August 17, 2005, 01:10:01 AM »
Zazen has a cogent set of arguements. The big problem is when a side, like the Knights recently, has a large (40+) numerical advantage all night, every night, for weeks. I left ACSs for 4 years over disgust with the "horde" mentality. I hope I don't have to leave again, with HTC losing one of those "paying newbies" that keep the game solvent for the more experienced vulchers. If I change sides TO the numerically advantaged side I gain ease of play & don't suffer any drop in my performance. Wasn't much issue whether earlier tonight the 5-6 chasing me were in p40's or La7's. It would have been a LOT easier for me in any plane  on the high numbered side. BTW, I don't have enough perk points to buy much in the way of perk planes, to lose them to the horde immediately.

-MI-(Shillelagh)

Offline Zazen13

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3600
ENY is CARP!
« Reply #101 on: August 17, 2005, 01:16:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MIShill
It would have been a LOT easier for me in any plane  on the high numbered side.
-MI-(Shillelagh)


Yup, that's exactly correct. To quote myself from last Saturday, I said, "The only difference the ENY limiter makes is the Knights are vulching us in La5's instead of La7's".

The ENY limiter doesn't change the outcome it just changes the method of execution.

Zazen
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
ENY is CARP!
« Reply #102 on: August 17, 2005, 01:19:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Zazen13
Did you actualy read the whole post? They are punished, until they move, then they are punished in a different way.

Of course they move eventually, along with some other noobs and some guys who can only find a kill with a Spit and an Indian guide. Then,  forced to the overwhelmed country, they get gang spanked and baby seal clubbed by the loyal seasoned veterans who stayed with their friends and squadmates. Then the poor noob quits the game out of sheer frustration taking their $15 and their credit card with them.

Zazen


You hit the nail on the head -
Just read another post where the LTARs are coming to Bish .
The problem has been the squads who left Rooks and Bish and went to the already higher numbered side.
They are the problem!!!!
That why I gave them the 'Royal Order of the Middle Finger".

Squad rotation is a good idea, until its starts creating the situation we have now.
Was going to say use some common sense to look at the numbers before rotating, but I guess thats asking a little too much.

Be nice to see the Bish/Rooks just kicking the crap out of the Knits only. Imagine Knits ENY'd, being hit exclusively by the other two sides with their cheap perky stuff.
Clear the decks for the whines then lol.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2005, 01:23:07 AM by Kev367th »
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline Zazen13

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3600
ENY is CARP!
« Reply #103 on: August 17, 2005, 01:22:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
You hit the nail on the head -
Just read another post where the LTARs are coming to Bish .
The problem has been the squads who left Rooks and Bish and went to the already higher numbered side.
They are the problem!!!!
That why I gave them the 'Royal Order of the Middle Finger".

Squad rotation is a good idea, until its starts creating the situation we have now.
Was going to say use some common sense to look at the numbers before rotating, but I guess thats asking a little too much.


I am not going to name names, but I am an astute observer. I see certain squads that actually FOLLOW the horde around as it goes form one country to another greatly exacerbating the situation. Just as MI says, it's still easier to vulch with the horde  in a P40b than fight the vulching hordes in a Spit or Niki. The fair weather flyers will always abound I guess. I prefer the insanely loyal who just stay put, fair weather or foul, to the fair weather candy tulips that follow the horde around.


Zazen
« Last Edit: August 17, 2005, 01:44:28 AM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
ENY is CARP!
« Reply #104 on: August 17, 2005, 01:24:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Zazen13
I am not going to name names, but I am an astute observer. I see certain squads that actually FOLLOW the horde around as it goes form one country to another greatly exacerbating the situation.

Zazen


Totally agree.
As I said perhaps Rook/Bish should just hit Knits exclusively for a week.
Knits ENY'ed, Rooks + Bish = more than Knits, they'd soon start whining.
Just spend 1 week trying to reset Knits EXCLUSIVELY.
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory