Author Topic: Navy presses for New Destroyer  (Read 1508 times)

Offline Seagoon

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Navy presses for New Destroyer
« on: August 16, 2005, 12:08:41 PM »
Interesting article on the Navy's desire to create a new class of "stealth DDs" capable of accurately bombarding targets hundreds of miles inland:

Navy battling for new super destroyer

My sense is, this project is going to die the death of a thousand cuts. Just unmothball the BBs already till the railgun technology is perfected. Besides, nothing says "Hello, you may not want to mess with us." like sixteen inch shells.

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Offline Krusher

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Re: Navy presses for New Destroyer
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2005, 12:17:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
Interesting article on the Navy's desire to create a new class of "stealth DDs" capable of accurately bombarding targets hundreds of miles inland:

Navy battling for new super destroyer

My sense is, this project is going to die the death of a thousand cuts. Just unmothball the BBs already till the railgun technology is perfected. Besides, nothing says "Hello, you may not want to mess with us." like sixteen inch shells.

- SEAGOON


The dang cost over runs is what will kill it!

---------------------

The first DD(X) is projected to cost $3.3 billion, but sister ships would be cheaper, the Navy says. Since 2004, however, the Navy's estimated costs per ship have gone up almost 50 percent for ships built after the first of their class, the Congressional Research Service says.

Offline Sandman

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Re: Navy presses for New Destroyer
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2005, 12:32:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
Besides, nothing says "Hello, you may not want to mess with us." like sixteen inch shells.

- SEAGOON


...and nothing says, "OBSOLETE" better than a weapon that can hit a target no further than twenty-six miles.

... and we can't forget the collateral damage that comes with it.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2005, 12:34:51 PM by Sandman »
sand

Offline Krusher

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Re: Re: Navy presses for New Destroyer
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2005, 12:33:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
...and nothing says, "OBSOLETE" better than a weapon that can hit a target no further than twenty-six miles.




I thought they carried Tomahawks back in Gulf 1?



Krush

Offline Chairboy

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Navy presses for New Destroyer
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2005, 12:34:08 PM »
The BBs are just sooooo expensive, and after you're done, you don't have anything new to show for it.  With the DD(X), you have a bunch of new technology afterwards.

1,600+ crew for the battleships, right?  This, during record low enlistment rates?  Sounds like a challenge.

Finally, saying 'wait for the railguns' doesn't mean you'll get them.  Same with people saying 'stop flying to space until a new safe vehicle is created'.  There will be no advancement until you walk all the steps between here and there.  Stop funding development of platforms for the technology, and the technology itself will never arrive.  Stop sending people to space, and the need for the new vehicle (and the R&D to create it) will never appear.
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Offline Sandman

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Re: Re: Re: Navy presses for New Destroyer
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2005, 12:36:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusher
I thought they carried Tomahawks back in Gulf 1?



Krush


Possibly, but there are more cost-effective ways to carry Tomahawk than a BB.
sand

Offline Chairboy

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Re: Re: Re: Navy presses for New Destroyer
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2005, 12:36:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusher
I thought they carried Tomahawks back in Gulf 1?
Same with the Arleigh Burkes, a bunch of cruisers, and the entire 688 submarine fleet, all of which are already in service.

The only thing the battleships bring that doesn't exist currently elsewhere is the big guns.
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Offline Furball

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Navy presses for New Destroyer
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2005, 12:57:28 PM »
so.. basically they want a new toy to fire rocket propelled JDAM bombs?
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Offline Chairboy

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Navy presses for New Destroyer
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2005, 01:05:09 PM »
Can't let the Army have all the fun.  Naval rocket-propelled artie is logical, considering that there's always a coast somewhere.
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Offline J_A_B

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Navy presses for New Destroyer
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2005, 01:08:16 PM »
"...and nothing says, "OBSOLETE" better than a weapon that can hit a target no further than twenty-six miles. "

Studies were done back in the '80's which indicated that they could improve the 16 inch gun useful range to at least 80-100 miles using similar technology as these Destroyers would use.  As for operational costs, they were cheaper to operate than aircraft carriers by a large margin.  You could run one for years on that $3.3 billion dollars or more you wouldn't have to spend for that proposed Destroyer design.  Also a Battleship has little to fear from low-tech terrorist attacks, while a Destroyer-size vessel is highly vulnerable to such damage.

They won't reactivate them since the Navy wants its new toys, but the claim that such ships are worthless in this day and age is simply inaccurate.

J_A_B

Offline XrightyX

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Navy presses for New Destroyer
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2005, 01:17:56 PM »
Naval Architects correct me if I'm wrong, but there is also the problem of the structural integrity of the decks of the BBs.  The shock of each salvo causes enormous stress on the ship.  

Tomahawk missles can be carried by the Ticonderogas, Arleigh Burkes, Los-Angeles and SeaWolfs.  They are also carried by Spruance class destroyers, but these are being phased out.  They are deployed in 4 battery "boxes" that have to be mounted on the ship's deck.  On the Spruance class, there's only room for 2 boxes.  

On the BBs, they removed most (if not all) of the 5" and put the boxes in.  Still, they can't really carry that many (maybe 50, can't remember how many they loaded on the ship)

In contrast, a VLS system on the modern cruisers and destroyers carries missiles in 64 (-3) or 32 (-3) verticle boxes for a total of either 124 or 90.  Pretty nice package for a ship with 160-200 crew.

Edit:  Also, nothing says "Big Al Queda Target" quite like a BB.  I think the US Navy is moving to smaller, more versatile ships.  It's a world-wide recognition that the evil empire (USSR) is now replaced by smaller, more numerous "hotspots".
« Last Edit: August 16, 2005, 01:20:35 PM by XrightyX »

Offline Chairboy

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Navy presses for New Destroyer
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2005, 01:24:09 PM »
If you want big Tomahawk platforms for cheap, use the Q-Ship concept.  Take commercial ships and mount self contained Tomahawk batteries on them.  They don't need to be full combat ships, not if they have an escort that's also fighting against a land-locked force.  Cheaper then a 1,600 crew BB.
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Offline Nilsen

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Navy presses for New Destroyer
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2005, 01:41:26 PM »
The Navy's idea of building more Burkes and incorporating the technology they are developing for the DDX seems like a good idea too me. Gradual introduction of new tech on a good and proven plattform.

I have been following the DDX development (via media off course) and alot of folks seem to agree that the US is already so far ahead of potential enemies that the Burkes will do for a loooong time.

The industry does not agree ofcouse.. they want the jobs.

Offline Nilsen

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Navy presses for New Destroyer
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2005, 01:43:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
If you want big Tomahawk platforms for cheap, use the Q-Ship concept.  Take commercial ships and mount self contained Tomahawk batteries on them.  They don't need to be full combat ships, not if they have an escort that's also fighting against a land-locked force.  Cheaper then a 1,600 crew BB.


Yup.

One of those and a couple of escorts and you have a cheap and extremly potent force for projecting power to shore. Add a couple of UAV's and a hangar and you are set.

Offline Seagoon

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Navy presses for New Destroyer
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2005, 02:09:06 PM »
Ok, admittedly an area where I'm just a dabbler. What I know about modern NAval surface warfare could be safely engraved on an iron filing with room to spare.

But here is the FAQ page offering a summary of the counter-arguments for reactivating the BBs:

BBG facts and figures

Here are two interesting paragraphs related to cost and force projection:

"Costs: The Navy’s comparing a capital ship like the battleship with far smaller and far less capable ships, like CGs and DDGs, is misleading, to say the least. Battleships can only fairly be compared with that other capital ship, the carrier. In 1999, the Navy estimated that it would cost $431 million to reactivated both Iowa and Wisconsin. Our shipbuilding experts estimate that it will take about an additional $500 million to extensively modernize both ships. (Converting them to BBGs). (Their present power plants are in good shape and adequate spare parts are on-hand.) Thus, for the original cost of the ill-fated USS Cole, we get two mighty BBGs. In 1999, the Navy also estimated annual battleship operation and maintenance costs (O&M) at $70.8 million for FY 2002. The carrier’s annual O&M costs are five to six times greater than for a BBG (not counting aircraft costs); moreover, they require at least twice as many expensive escort ships. These two BBGs, needed by the Navy, Marine Corps and the Army, should best be separately funded as joint “national assets”, outside the Navy’s budget and manpower ceilings, thus meeting a key Navy objection to bringing back these ships..

Manpower Demands: A BBG will require a full complement of about 1300 (achieved through automation and modern 5-inch guns with smaller crews). The carrier needs 5,600, including aircrew. For three of the Navy’s most essential missions, however, the highly survivable BBG would be clearly superior: providing extreme range Tomahawk strikes, fire support in littoral regions and a forward visible intimidating presence in high threat areas closed to the more vulnerable carrier. (We believe, however, that large carriers will long remain indispensable for, inter alia, maintaining local air superiority, long-range strikes and staging platforms for long-range missions [as demonstrated in Afghanistan]. BBGs will complement and take the pressure off carriers.) Within the present range of its 16-inch guns (adequate for supporting forced entry and other littoral operations up to 25 miles inland which will meet Marines’ present, pre-OMFTS requirements) one BBG could, in 24 hours, accurately, rapidly, around-the-clock and in all weather lay down a weight of ordnance equal to that delivered from our entire 12-ship carrier fleet. With the advent of more of the more capable F/A 18 E/F on carriers, one BBG loading 60% extended range (out to over 100 miles and later with scramjet projectiles possibly out to 1000 miles) and 40% conventional projectiles will still be the equal of 4.5 carriers. (The large dollar and manpower costs of a carrier are, however, entirely justified, as would be those [much smaller] of a BBG.) In laying down 5-inch fire only, one BBG could equal 15 destroyers (DDG) that would have a combined manpower complement of 4,875 (vs 1300 on a BBG) and total O&M costs of $600 million (vs $70.8 million). If the BBG also used its nine 16-inch guns, the comparison would be off the chart. In the highly unlikely chance that the DD(X) could have a crew of only 95, the crews of 14 DD(X)s would equal that of one BBG, but all 14 together would have only a small fraction of a BBG’s tactical firepower, indispensable for NSFS, and would have far less mission versatility. This math clearly validates Chairman Stump’s above statement (page 1)."

One major point is that I think you will have less difficulty getting Congress to recommission and fund two existing BBs for less than develop and build new ships for far, far, more. I think the Navy expended a lot more capital (no pun intended) than it had in that area saving the Seawolf program. Now just getting upgrades to existing systems is a major hurdle.

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams