Author Topic: $253 million  (Read 579 times)

Offline Eagler

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« on: August 19, 2005, 05:20:15 PM »
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


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Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2005, 05:30:15 PM »
That is just plain dumb.  I'm not siding with the drug companies about their liabilities in such cases but this is excessive.

Quote
The courtroom erupted in an uproar at the reading of the verdict and Ernst broke into tears. Her lawyer, Mark Lanier, leaped up and shouted "Amen."


yea the lawyer gets 1/3 of that I'd say AMEN too.

Another thaught is that SOME people arent going to react to well to vaccines and medication while others may be cured of their ales.  Does this mean sueing drug companys out of existance will bring more cures the market or less?

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2005, 05:39:45 PM »
The stunning verdict was certain to be greatly reduced under Texas law,

What is this law? and approx how much is "greatly reduced"? Might be a good stock buy when it bottoms out! ;)

Offline Krusher

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Re: $253 million
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2005, 05:39:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
just nuts



Another lawyer and his client hit the lotto and the drug company will push that cost down the pipe.

Naaa drug and insurance prices are not affected by layers at all :lol

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2005, 05:54:10 PM »
"Merck attorney Jonathan Skidmore said the company would appeal the decision, but estimated that even if it is upheld the punitive damages would be trimmed to less than $2 million."

"Texas law limits punitive awards to two times economic damage -- in this case $450,000 -- plus up to another $750,000. There is no financial limit for loss of companionship and mental anguish."


"The stunning verdict was certain to be greatly reduced under Texas law, but Merck's stock fell sharply as investors feared it could set a precedent for more than 4,200 lawsuits charging that the company hid the drug's' health risks."

The company "hid" health risks and someone died. Sounds like 200 million is spot on. Allowing drug companies to "Hide" results of testing of drugs is reprehensible. I know some people will just have "reactions" or what not, but this seems to have been more widespread than 1 person having a reaction and dying. This appears to be systemic by Merck to make a profit at the cost of a few people dying and becoming ill. Have no problem with the huge award, maybe it will teach them to tell the truth about their drugs and what the testing has shown.

Either way its gonna get reduced so it doesnt really matter. Might be why they came back with such a huge award. Knowing it would get reduced but still wanted to send a warning to the Drug companies.

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2005, 05:55:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
"Merck attorney Jonathan Skidmore said the company would appeal the decision, but estimated that even if it is upheld the punitive damages would be trimmed to less than $2 million."

"Texas law limits punitive awards to two times economic damage -- in this case $450,000 -- plus up to another $750,000. There is no financial limit for loss of companionship and mental anguish."


"The stunning verdict was certain to be greatly reduced under Texas law, but Merck's stock fell sharply as investors feared it could set a precedent for more than 4,200 lawsuits charging that the company hid the drug's' health risks."

The company "hid" health risks and someone died. Sounds like 200 million is spot on. Allowing drug companies to "Hide" results of testing of drugs is reprehensible. I know some people will just have "reactions" or what not, but this seems to have been more widespread than 1 person having a reaction and dying. This appears to be systemic by Merck to make a profit at the cost of a few people dying and becoming ill. Have no problem with the huge award, maybe it will teach them to tell the truth about their drugs and what the testing has shown.

Either way its gonna get reduced so it doesnt really matter. Might be why they came back with such a huge award. Knowing it would get reduced but still wanted to send a warning to the Drug companies.


so why make drugs and vaccines at all?

Offline LePaul

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« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2005, 05:56:41 PM »
Yea, good example of why we need Tort Reform.

$200+ million?  Please.

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2005, 06:01:32 PM »
Hiding the results of clinical trials is negligent beyond belief. Perhaps if it was your relative or loved one (presuming you have them) you wouldn't be so laughably bullish.

I'm sure you wouldn't even complain.
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2005, 06:57:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
Hiding the results of clinical trials is negligent beyond belief.


Nailed it.
sand

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2005, 07:12:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
Nailed it.


did they actually cover up the evidence?  THe article talked about long term usage.  IIRC they voluntaryily pulled it off the shelves.  I could be wrong or I could be thinking about a different drug maker.

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2005, 07:23:54 PM »
Quote
Merck lawyer Jonathan Skidmore said the appeal would center on what he believes was “unreliable scientific evidence.”

“It’ll be based on the fact that we believe unqualified expert testimony was allowed in the case; there were expert opinions that weren’t grounded in science, the type that are required in the state of Texas,” he said. “We don’t believe they (plaintiffs) met their burden of proof.”


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9006921/

might make for an interesting appeal.

Quote
Merck pulled Vioxx, a $2.5 billion seller, from the market in September 2004 when a long-term study showed it could double risk of heart attack or stroke if taken for 18 months or longer.

Case centered on autopsy report
But unlike many other pending lawsuits involving obvious heart attacks, the Ernst case centered on an autopsy that attributed his death to an arrhythmia secondary to clogged arteries. That autopsy — and the coroner who performed it — proved critical to the trial’s outcome.

Merck pointed to the autopsy as proof that Vioxx could not have caused the death of Ernst, who ran marathons and taught aerobics.

However, Dr. Maria Araneta, the pathologist who performed Ernst’s autopsy, testified for Ernst that a blood clot that she couldn’t find probably caused a heart attack that triggered Ernst’s arrhythmia. She also said the heart attack killed Ernst too quickly for his heart to show damage.

While she couldn’t say definitively that he had a blood clot and heart attack, she insisted they were the likely culprits in triggering an arrhythmia, which she said wouldn’t happen on its own.

Araneta didn’t blame Vioxx, however, noting she knew little about the drug when she performed Ernst’s autopsy. But three plaintiff’s experts in arrhythmia, cardiology and public health did.

Merck’s experts agreed with Araneta’s conclusions in the autopsy, but not her undocumented theory of what triggered the arrhythmia.




I don't know much about medicine or this company but I dont yet see anything negligent on their part.  Again, why make medicine at all?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2005, 07:26:01 PM by Gunslinger »

Offline LePaul

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« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2005, 07:31:17 PM »
Deleted.

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Offline Simaril

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« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2005, 09:30:35 PM »
I'm a doctor, with no ties at all to the drug industry, and I've followed this issure closely since it first came out.

Point 1
Clinical trials dont have to be hidden to be confusing. The art of clinical sscience comes in pulling the "truth" out from the mess of randomness -- i.e. "results" that look a certain way just 'cause the dice were rolled enough that a by chance a false result looks true. "Conclusions" are "significant" when the chance of randomly false results is under 5% In other words, reliable studies are randomly wrong 1 time out of 20.

IN real life, 1/3 of all scientific studies turn out to have incorrect conclusions, as a recent review found. This is exactly why one week coffee is bad for you, and the next week coffee is good for you.

So anybody honestly looking at the data can have reasonable uncertainty about the importance of the results. When lawyers say "Merck knew", it's the lawyers -- not the company -- that are twisting the truth. I doubt its the lawyers' ignorance, since they're the only really big winners.




Point 2

The media isnt worth poo when it comes to assessing science, especially in regards to relative risk. Media twerps seem to be limited to "this bad" and "this good." Life isnt that simple.

Bottom line -- the studies showing problems with the COX-2 inhibitors like Vioxx DID show that there was an increased risk of cardiac events in those taking the drugs...BUT the risk was very small. As I'm remembering off the top of my head, the study groups found like 20 heart attacks for every 1000 people NOT taking Viox, and 45 heart attacks per thousand in those TAKING viox. It's much more exciting to say "double the risk" -- so the talking heads said that -- but in reality, for every person who had an MI on Viox, 50 people took it without any problem at all. AND, almost half of the MI's in people taking the drug WERE GOING TO HAPPEN ANYWAY. Try explaining that to a jury...


And this jury awarded the money even though the guy died from arrythmia, WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH A COX-2 DRUG. PERIOD.



Point 3

Every arthritis and anti-inflammatory medicine except tylenol increases risk of heart attack. Celebrex (only at high doses), probably Bextra; and the entier Motrin family includig Naproxen and others all have SOME degree of increased risk.

It comes down to taking a risk because the benefit is greater.  We do it every day when we drive to get groceries or go to work -- we might get hit by a plane or a drunk driver or a dump truck tryign to merge. WE drive anyway because experience has taught us that the risk is small and the benefits are greater. We try to minimize the risk by being smart, but only a neurotic will try to live a zero risk life.





Unfortunately, the media and the plaintiff's bar act like we should have a zero risk life. The outcome may be very rich lawyers, class action victims getting $150 each, and no drugs on the market. We've already lost domestic vaccine makers.... how far will we let it go? Knee jerk anti-corporate reactions will bite us in the butt -- so unless there has been real corporate malfeisance, which has never been suggested in the COX-2 case, punitive damages are ludicrous.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2005, 09:37:24 PM by Simaril »
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Offline Yeager

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« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2005, 10:08:14 PM »
did you see the tape of the plaintiff and her lawyers when the verdict was read?


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Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2005, 10:49:57 PM »
thanks for the post Simaril.  It's almost comforting to know except that all drug company's are suceptable to big law suits.  It gets to the point were there is more liability in an industry than there is profit.  What's the point of making it.

I hadn't realized about your statment of domestic vaccines.  I sthat accurate there's none left?