Why is it that bombers ARE SO EASY to get shot down?

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Siaf__csf
If buff guns are no different, how could a B24 kill a manned ack with 2 pings from the gunners where P40N with its 8 .50 couldn't kill one with 2+ second burst?

Baloney.

Because the gunner on the B-24 was far better an aim than the pilot in the P-47 and was able to actually hit the field gun/gunner instead of just hitting around it like the P-47 did.


ack-ack

[Siaf__csf]

Seems that manned ack is indeed killable with .50 where auto ack seems really hard .

[Howitzer]

Originally posted by Karnak
Howitzer,

Only the guns that can bear in the direction the gunner is pointing and have no part of the bomber blocking their line of fire will actually fire.  In addition the convergence is hard set to 500 yards, so unless the fighter is very close to 500 yards the bullets from the drone bombers will never hit,  You greatly exagerate the difficulty involved for the fighters.

Ok so 2 tail guns, 2 belly guns and 2 left/right 50 cal guns on 1 bomber.  So that is 18 guns across 3 bombers.  And I can hit targets at 1K away with bombers.  I'm not exaggerating anything here karnak.  Take up a g10 with just taters and try to take down a bomber.  Should take you 3 passes, barring you don't run out of ammo or become cannon fodder.

[AmRaaM]

Bombers arent easy to kill, their too hard in most cases. The only "easy" ones are the bombers with noobs at the stick and guns.

bombers have an unfair advantage in this game as all 30 guns are controlled from one point basically, thats 10-20 fifties firing on your ac in a pass vs your cannons/mgs.

I've hit buffs plenty times with 30mm's and they hardly do anything. It's far easier to knock em down with 4x50s blasting the cockpit or wingtips.

I've also get plenty of fighter kills with buffs from 1000+ range at all angles of attack. If you take a buff box out and dont come back with at least 3 fighter kills and all your a/c then your need to lead em more because thats pretty damn easy to do in this game.

[NoBaddy]

Originally posted by Siaf__csf
If buff guns are no different, how could a B24 kill a manned ack with 2 pings from the gunners where P40N with its 8 .50 couldn't kill one with 2+ second burst?

Baloney.

The difference is dispersion. Fighters have it...buff guns don't.

[Karnak]

Howitzer,

I've killed bombers with just about ever fighter in AH.  Their guns are weak if you attack from above and to the side and come in fast.  Most fighter pilots attack right up the 6 of the bomber and then die whining.  You also ignored the fact that due to convergence being at 500 yard, not the target's distance, the guns on the drones are all but useless.

Originally posted by NoBaddy
The difference is dispersion. Fighters have it...buff guns don't.

Buff guns do have dispersion.  They don't have their historical dispersion, but they do have the normal dispersion for their weapon type.


I don't know how so many myths stick around after HiTech has popped them repeatedly.

[IownU]

Originally posted by FalconSix
After studying AARs and downed allied bombers the Germans concluded it took 10-20 20mm hits or 3-5 30mm hits to down a four-engined bomber.

this statement is correct for 30mm its only 3-5 hits and if your a pro at it it only take 3 hits if you are having problems killing them then you need to goto the TA and practice shooting down 109s out of thier dives thats what i had to do

[Howitzer]

I also attack from a high 3 or 9 oclock position and buffs suck ammo like crazy.  I'm not ignoring anything, those drone guns are anything but useless.

[IownU]

here here howi you can switch from buff to buff to get a better aim on your nme when i fly in to an nme base with my buffs i take out between 6-7 planes before they get me so its just a matter of practice

[NoBaddy]

Originally posted by Karnak


I don't know how so many myths stick around after HiTech has popped them repeatedly.

Well, you will have to ask HT about this 'myth', since he is the person that told me this.

[Kweassa]

Probably the biggest reason that buffs are easy kills, is that most interceptors are highly determined, and the fear of being shot down will not deterr them in their attempt to shoot a buff down.

 I've seen all sorts of pilots, the good and bad. The good pilots shoot down buffs easily. The bad pilots have it more tough, but still they shoot down buffs anyway.

 They don't care if they are bleeding, radiator busted, oil splattered, flap torn, elevator nuked, aileron snipped, etc etc.. as long as the buff is ahead, dead 6 or not, in most cases they will follow it and shoot at it until the ammo is all spent.

 2~3 of such guys around and most every buff formations is practically toast. They jump at it like moth to a flame, guns blazing.

 
 However, if one is trying to actually stay alive, and shoot down buffs at the same time, it's actually not very easy.
 
 It's easy if you already have 5~6k alt over him, but in many cases buffs are already within 10 mile range of its target, less than a minute away from dropping point when they are spotted, usually by people who are flying lower than them.

 In such case, you don't have enough time to grab altitude as leisurely as you please(unless you don't care whether he busts all your FHs or not). You have to catch up to him, and start high-risk attacks.. swerving and ducking a lot, weaving through gunfire, popping a shot here and there, all the while trying to shoot him down before he makes the drop.

 Bur if you don't care about being damaged, you just approach his six, go straight with guns blazing. The chances are the buff guns will knock you dead, but you'll also probably down one buff. 2~3 same type of guys nearby, and the buffs are practically dead.


ps) ofcourse, this can alternately translate into the fact that most buffs are usually flying pitifully low. In the MA, a buff comes in 18k+ and usually he'll be going home unscathed.

 A buff's best pal is alt. His best chance of success is to not meet interceptors at all. Flying at an alt where you can expect to meet interceptors, and then complaining that the buffs are too easy to be shot down in presence of them, is basically nonsense.

 Interceptors are SUPPOSED to shoot buffs down. That's why buffs flew in numbers, and with escorts.

[Wotan]

Originally posted by NoBaddy
Well, you will have to ask HT about this 'myth', since he is the person that told me this.

Both Pyro and HT told me that buff guns have 'dispersion'. I posted images of from the book  "Gunner" ISBN 1-55046-332-2.

These were images from ground tests of a B-17 and B-24. I no longer have the images but here's the data:

B-17 12 rounds to 600yds:

ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 21' - 11.7mils
chin turret > dia. 23' - 12.6 mils
waist(closed) dia. 26' - 14.3mils
side nose > dia. 34' - 18.7mils
tail turret > dia 45' - 25mils (yes that's 45 feet)

For the B-24 it was:

ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 20' - 11.2mils
nose turret > dia. 23' - 12.9mils (Emerson)
nose turret > dia. 35' - 19.3mils (Motor Prod.)
waist(closed) dia. 23' - 12.9mils
waist(open) dia. 63' - 35.6mils
tail turret > dia 35' - 19.3mils

I pointed out that AH bomber gunner dispersion didn't match the data above. I even checked off line using .target. I found that all gun positions had the same dispersion. But 'dispersion' none the less.

As Karnak pointed out:

Buff guns do have dispersion. They don't have their historical dispersion, but they do have the normal dispersion for their weapon type.

What HT has said about bomber guns is that don't all converge at one point. You can test this using the .target command. Take the side guns on the B-17, if your target is 300 yards 6 o'clock the side gunners cant converge on that point. The stream will run parallel heading out behind the bomber. It to will have 'dispersion'.

What makes gunning a bomber easy is the fact that the gun positions are a nice stable platform. There is no gun shake, recoil or vibration etc...

What makes a bomber gunner more deadly at longer ranges from 6 o'clock is the fact you are flying into the bullet stream.

Any way there most certainly is 'dispersion' with the bomber gun positions.

[ChopSaw]

Originally posted by fastfed
I understand allot of you 109 pilots are good with your monster cannons and all
But seriously, it seems just a couple hits to the wings and they rip in half.. Is it just so easy to hit the planes, or is the bombers ( Mostly 17's that I fly ) really weak in this game??

Some complain the bombers are too strong and it takes a lot of hits from the 30 mils to do damage to one.  Some bombers complain that just a couple hits and they’re falling.  I think it’s both and I think this is appropriate.  If you spray a bomber with the 30’s, not aiming at or hitting any one particular spot, you’re not going to do critical damage a lot of the time.  If you line up for a proper run and aim at one of the critical areas, that bomber is going down and there is no question about it.

I fly bombers and this seems to be a fair balance to me even though I really hate facing a fighter pilot who knows what he/she is doing.  They’ll take apart my planes and I’ll be lucky to give them even minor damage.  On the other hand if a guy sits there on my six saying, “please shoot me, I’m that silly”, I’ll oblige him.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

I posted this animation on another thread already but it's a fine reply to your comment..

8 hits directly on elevator, 2 hits to front vertical stab all from a high speed pass in a 262.

Buff never lost a single part but pinged me enough to force rtb.

[ChopSaw]

Well this film actually makes my point.  I’m not sure what damage you did to the buff.  It seems like there should have been at least some.  It looks like you’re hitting the fuselage forward of the stabilizers.  From what I was seeing you might have hit a bit on the forward edge of the horizontal stab and I didn’t see one sprite on the vertical stab.  In any case you’re not hitting at all close to any of the critical areas of the bomber.  I’m not sure if you were trying to saw his tail off or seriously screw up his stabilizers. In either case it would take a lot more hits from that angle to do it.

Additionally, you got raked by his guns because of how you came in.  It’s not the worst you could have chosen, but far from the ideal.  Actually, I’m surprised he didn’t down you.  If you line up for a proper run, you won’t get damaged unless you run into somebody that has a lot of luck or is just unbelievably good.  If you hit a critical area with those big spud guns, you will down the bomber.  I’ve done it with a Mustang and if the .50’s can do it, you know the 30’s can.

Ack Ack wrote a very telling post on this subject.  Of course he used the P38.  I don’t think I’ve ever heard of him using anything else save by rumor.  He explained how to make the run at bombers and stated it worked every time.  I’m sure it did.  However, he only described one of the critical areas of the bombers.  There are more.  I’m sure he knows about those as well.  His approach line is the one that I really hate to see a fighter taking with me when I’m flying buffs.